Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

Galaxy

I think this will open the debate further, I cant imagine how you can justify stopping men going into female prisons but allow men into refuges etc.

Agreed. How can it be policy to protect women from men in prison but not in hospitals and other environments? From there it is a short step to changing rooms and loos.

That would be the reset needed to discuss the options, and actually listen to women for a change.

Let's hope it's a permanent pause!

Galaxy - it’s impossible to have a blanket policy of allowing men into refuges. The only sexual offence that took place in a hostel I worked in was by a transwoman who’d been looking after a 4 year old boy while his mum was at court. There were staff on duty at the time but they weren’t aware s/he was in a quiet tv room away from sight.

I think this will open the debate further, I cant imagine how you can justify stopping men going into female prisons but allow men into refuges etc.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with a violent rapist who now claims to be a woman and a victim.

S/he has been taking hormones and told the court s/he wants ‘all the surgery the nhs can give’.

I hope, despite the long NHS waiting lists at this time, that his wish will be granted asap.

It is common sense and to be welcomed. However with every clarification they are showing clearly the daftness of the mantra "TWAW no debate". To quote from the link you shared Doodledog

As the first minister pointed out last week, we must not allow any suggestion to take root that trans women pose an inherent threat to women. but the next quote is
Predatory men are the risk to women. However, as with any group in society, a small number of trans women will offend and be sent to prison.

So is Keith Brown stripping violent transwomen of their women status? If a small number of transwomen are predatory men, doesn't if follow that the rest of the transwomen are non-predatory men?

varian

One of my grand-daughters has a friend who used to be a girl called Rosie, but is now a "non-binary person" called Robin (good name for someone who is not sure where they belong - could be a girl or a boy)

My grand-daughter and her friends have no problem with Rosie now being Robin and neither do the teachers who call out "Robin" when they take the register and they all use the pronoum "they".

My grand-daughter, when she explained all this to me, could obviously not see why I was even asking questions about this change in her school-friend which she just accepts as a normal choice.

That's the feed-back I got from my niece, varian, when I was collecting opinions and information for a meeting on trans issues. she's the heaHteacher of a very large comprehensive in the South-West of England, and what you report is ore or less exactly what she said. which is that a lot of young pole know far more than many of the teachers about the issues, that there is a high degree of acceptance of tans or gay students.

* [Paragraph removed by GNHQ at poster's request]

Some of the teenagers do write things like "non binary" on forms and no big thing is made of it, because it's hard to tell who is serious and who is experimenting with being what they consider "transgressive".

As individual pupils, the teachers doors are open should a student need to discuss matters and referrals made. they do NOT "teach" trans - its out there already.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

There is to be a pause on transgender criminals with a history of violence being placed in Scottish jails.

Common sense prevails, for now at least.

That’s an interesting post Varian. Hope it goes well for them. I am curious to know if the pupils use the pronoun “they” for every pupil in the class or just when addressing Robin.

You aren’t alone, Delila. It has sneaked up on us, starting with people - women mostly - starting by ‘being kind’ and supporting what seemed to be underdogs. It’s what women do, mostly.

Gradually, people began to realise the flaws in the TWAW mantra, but by then, anyone saying ‘Hang on a minute’, or ‘what about. . .’ was ridiculed, and it became more difficult to speak out, until we got to where we are now, when dissenting voices are shouted down, and women are what men say we are.

The problem is if/when social affirmation leads to medical intervention, and there is not enough evidence to say whether social affirmation is harmless, I dont think a name change is here or there, but the NHS seem to be raising concerns about social affirmation. I have a vague memory that medical intervention tends to be more something female non binary people end up doing than make non binary people, but would need to look into that.

One of my grand-daughters has a friend who used to be a girl called Rosie, but is now a "non-binary person" called Robin (good name for someone who is not sure where they belong - could be a girl or a boy)

My grand-daughter and her friends have no problem with Rosie now being Robin and neither do the teachers who call out "Robin" when they take the register and they all use the pronoum "they".

My grand-daughter, when she explained all this to me, could obviously not see why I was even asking questions about this change in her school-friend which she just accepts as a normal choice.

Most of the toys mine had (90s babies) were 'gender neutral'. Playmobil, Duplo, farms, zoos and so on, and craft-based things like Fuzzy Felt and Spirograph. My daughter had a craze on Barbie, which coincided with starting school and a desire to fit in with the other girls, but they all seemed to go off it after a couple of years. Gadgets such as children's 'computers' were coming in, with an educational focus, and again, they weren't aimed at one sex or the other.

Compared to my own childhood (60s) it seemed very non-specific. We had dolls, typewriters, skipping ropes, and the boys had guns, footballs and cars. Obviously both sexes had bikes and games, but it seemed more segregated than it was for my children.

Maybe things have changed again. I wonder why that might have happened? It does feel as though the world is getting more and more dangerous for women, and maybe pushing little girls back into playing with ironing boards and toy vacuum cleaners is part of that.

I used to feel it was part of my role as a mother to instil body-confidence in my children, and it worked a treat.

Now children’s doubts about their bodies seem to be reinforced by anxious parents and social media, etc, introducing possibilities which until recently would never previously have entered a child’s head.

Wherever did the idea of being in the wrong body come from? There must be instances of this, but on such a scale, in young children?

I confess I don’t have much of a grasp of this issue, and I struggle to understand it.

Good point Iam64

Pink and blue toys have been more prevalent since my younger grandchildren started to arrive 7 years ago. Unicorns and Frozen frocks aimed at girls, science aimed at boys. In the 70 and 80’d we tried hard not to buy stereotypical toys but that seemed to go out the window.

Im not surprised the number of adolescent girls who want to be non binary or trans has increased. Misogyny is back. Look at the treatment of Rosie Duffield and another female Labour MP shouted down and heckled by male Labour MP’s . Same old men telling women to shut up.

^Inaction Asleep Man^. TBH I never noticed and our boys were born in the 80's. I do remember my friend's husband having a fit because their youngest boy, aged 4 wanted a kitchen for Christmas which despite the protests he got, and our boys and both of theirs absolutely loved it.

Ilovecheese

Could the number of younger children feeling that they are the wrong sex be in any part due to the proliferation of segregated pink and blue toys that has happened in the last twenty or so years. Toys were more neutral in the seventies, the difference in the advertising for Lego, for instance is quite noticeable.
If children see that the toys that they enjoy are in the "wrong" colour section for their sex, will they conclude that it is themselves that are wrong, not the toy marketing.

That really surprises me Ilovecheese. I suppose I just assumed that segregating children's toys by gender no longer happened

No, it seemed to become more segregated by gender in the 80s I think.
This was discussed some while ago on GN. Lego was just Lego when my DC were young but then they started making kits which were more gender specific.

Barbie, Sindy and Action Man were supposedly gender-specific though although DS used to push Action Man round in a little toy pram. Less Action Man, more Inaction Asleep Man

VioletSky

That's OK if that's what you want. If you want a discussion with no place for different views or concerns.

But I have to tell you how insular it is when you put your opinions about things you haven't experienced above the needs of those who actually have experienced them and disregard everyone who has been sincerely helped.

Anyway

I am starting to feel my presence simply encourages more of what concerns me and there is at least something that can be done about that

VS, I don't know who you are addressing that to, but I posted a thoughtful response to your own post. It comes across as though you don't want discussion, to to hear anything that conflicts with your views. It's very frustrating.

Ilovecheese

Could the number of younger children feeling that they are the wrong sex be in any part due to the proliferation of segregated pink and blue toys that has happened in the last twenty or so years. Toys were more neutral in the seventies, the difference in the advertising for Lego, for instance is quite noticeable.
If children see that the toys that they enjoy are in the "wrong" colour section for their sex, will they conclude that it is themselves that are wrong, not the toy marketing.

I can remember going to Hamleys as a child, they definitely had boys and girls toys on separate floors, distinguished by pink and blue labelling.

They started to do away with pink signs and blue signs in 2011 moving away from old stereotypes.

Smileless2012 It is starting to change now, John Lewis for one has recently stopped doing the pink and blue nonsense.

I also wonder whether it is easier to notice a conflict of rights if one lives in a more diverse society. I have noticed that trans allies can be quite dismissive of religious and cultural feelings if those cultures and feelings include not being able to attend say, swimming or exercise classes with men, or accept medical examinations and treatment from men.
Whereas if one lives in a more mono cultural environment, those questions are less likely to arise.

That really surprises me Ilovecheese. I suppose I just assumed that segregating children's toys by gender no longer happened.

Could the number of younger children feeling that they are the wrong sex be in any part due to the proliferation of segregated pink and blue toys that has happened in the last twenty or so years. Toys were more neutral in the seventies, the difference in the advertising for Lego, for instance is quite noticeable.
If children see that the toys that they enjoy are in the "wrong" colour section for their sex, will they conclude that it is themselves that are wrong, not the toy marketing.

Sorry FannyC. I’m the merchant of doom and off topic doom as well. I’ll stop and sing always look in the bright side of life