Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

Thank you Fanny.

I do find it tiresome to read that questioning the agenda of the trans ‘cause’ is akin to homophobia - it isn’t. And dragging in racism is equally odious.

What another excellent and thought provoking post Doodledog

There are huge differences between the situations of gay people in the past and trans people now.

Gay people were marginalised - there was a law against positive discussion of their lifestyles or sexuality, something which (AFAIK) has never been applied to any other group before or since.

Gay clubs and venues were still raided during the 80s (Paul O’Grady was arrested in such a raid when he was performing as Lily Savage - the police wore rubber gloves during the raid to protect them from the perceived risk of catching AIDS).

There was a long list of words used to describe gay people - all of them offensive - and their portrayal on tv was as camp, effete parodies. Lesbians were hardly portrayed at all.

They were treated differently under law. No marriage or civil partnerships, no adoption, until relatively recently their very existence was illegal.

‘Cures’ were cruel and could be forced on people. Gay people were not allowed to be in the forces. The list goes on.

Now we hear that trans people are ‘the most marginalised group in society’, but none of the above applies. None of it. It may well be different for transpeople to be different’, particularly if they are introverted, but that is true of many groups who are outside of the ‘mainstream’. There is no legal discrimination against them - in fact they have rights that are denied others (eg to be able to access same-sex spaces). There are numerous tv shows celebrating transgender lifestyles. Schools have policies which, far from marginalising the idea of ‘transitioning’ talk of 100 genders. As I type an emoji is being suggested to depict trans something ⚧️ Non-binary? None of this suggests that transpeople live on the margins at all.

Can I just add the 'calling men out' thing isn't relevant to the discussion. Lots of women for all sorts of reasons cannot 'call men out' Judging situations based on your own needs isn't useful.

VioletSky I apologise for suggesting that you are homophobic

I don’t think that you are homophobic for one minute (your sexuality is irrelevant).

What I poorly tried to express is that some of your views regarding gender and stereotypes are similar to some expressed by those who are homophobes.

I find much of what you write quite confusing and contradictory.
But, as I say, I do apologise

Wyllow3 was the treatment of gays-of which I wasn’t really aware back in the 70’s, impacted by the violence and wrongdoing (e.g. cheating and lying) by any of the gay community?
I can’t find any record of that sort of activity, but one if your gay women might well know.

My limited knowledge is that any violence was perpetrated against them, not by them. Unlike the current threats and violence of some TW and TRA, aimed against females, including lesbians, but impacting on the image of all trans.

My list. That sounded weird.

Yes many of the women on my list are lesbians, they hold a different view.

Willow, your discussion was with one woman whose views I respect. That doesn’t mean I share them, or that they’re representative of the majority.
I could reflect on what it felt like to be the team feminist in the late 70’s early 80’s when feminists were identifying domestic abuse as a safeguarding issue not ‘just a domestic’. Marginalised, accused of bigotry.

Sorry - I wasn't being picky .

I just feel very sorry for RD, as she's been treated really badly.

"What has acceptance of gay people got to do with what anyone expects of trans people? Nothing. It is this insistence on linking views about trans people in the 2020s with views on gay people in the 1970s (which were not even held by those on this thread) that is in question."

Actually in my quaker meeting, I talked at length to one of our gay women, and that is exactly how she sees attitudes to Transpeople. It's exactly what happened to gays who are just a bit older than her in the 1980's.

Yes I knew I would miss someone.
Joanna Cherry too.

Rosie Duffield deserves a mention too.

Wyllow, I completely take your point, but at the same time, please remember that nobody is conflating people like the 'decent' transwomen you mention with criminals. We really aren't doing that, any more than the law conflates decent men like our (or most of our) sons and husbands with rapists or voyeurs, yet they are not allowed in women's spaces either, because some of them might be.

It's the same thing.

Galaxy

I was thinking just now of the debt we owe to women who have bravely spoken on this issue for years, often at great personal cost.
JK Rowling
Kathleen Stock
Julie Bindel
Alison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Janice Turner
Suzanne Moore
I will have forgotten many I am sure, but they have been astounding.
Oh and Justine Roberts for giving women a place to talk.

Thanks for the reminder.

I was thinking just now of the debt we owe to women who have bravely spoken on this issue for years, often at great personal cost.
JK Rowling
Kathleen Stock
Julie Bindel
Alison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Janice Turner
Suzanne Moore
I will have forgotten many I am sure, but they have been astounding.
Oh and Justine Roberts for giving women a place to talk.

There will be women unable to use those changing rooms because of the presence of men. You will never know anything about them because they will be too scared, too intimidated or too polite to say so. They will be excluded from those spaces.

I'm not happy, in terms of compassion, getting on, acceptance of difference, to conflate transwomen who are gender choice women and living as decent human beings

With those transwomen who seek to offend and invade womens spaces in order to transgress and attack.

There's a couple of transwomen who change in our changing rooms at the gym. They use the cubicles. I have not heard objections and that's because they do not threaten nor seek to offend.

I would report anyone who sought to intimidate for whatever reason in our changing rooms whoever they be.

I've said this before other thread: I have no time for men who threaten or abuse: I am just coming out of an abusive marriage with a straight man and am on "high alert", believe me.

I am so sad that this issue is so divisive. I am sure there is middle ground: but to do this I have accepted that there are some people who were born, who feel without doubt, they are "in the wrong gender bodies" and are often the target of hate or fear.

And think back to the damage that was done Doodledog when AIDS was known was as the gay plague. Promiscuous heterosexuals, not practising safe sex by using condoms, and heterosexual drug addicts sharing dirty needles, thought they were immune because they weren't gay, only they were wrong weren't they.

Misinformation is a dangerous thing especially when it's 'out there' because it fits a particular agenda. Saying that trans women are women is another example, especially when an intact male claims to be a woman because he feels like a woman and as a result has the opportunity to access women only spaces.

Some people got AIDS because they didn't think they could because they weren't gay. Women are potentially being put at risk because they're expected to accept than an intact male, who feels like a woman, will never be a threat.

Another good post Mollygo

Trans people are seen as a threat in changing spaces and public bathrooms and gekd responsible for crimes they didnt commit.
(Actually, it’s only TW, not all trans.)

And this perception of trans has been caused by the actions of those (now described by some as fake,) TW who caused the public image of trans, particularly TW to be damaged and made people, even those who previously didn’t even know such a thing existed, suspicious of all trans.

No one has come up with a way of removing this damage. It certainly isn’t helped by the continuing actions of TRA, or the occurrence of TIM being given jobs specifically for females or being allowed to self ID and demand places in female prisons.
It is unfair if all trans (TW) are seen as a threat but I’m not even sure that that’s true.
Despite what was said at the top of this post,
Most trans despise the activities of the harmful trans and aren’t any more visible than they were before.
Most people feel for the notoriety innocent trans have had thrust upon them and don’t condemn any of them except those harmful trans.

Good post Doodledog

The only person who has been accused of homophobia on this thread or others is me
No, that is not true. We are constantly reminded of Section 28, and of the 1970s, (despite that being 50 years ago) and how people were phobic about gay people. This has happened over and over on many threads, including ones you've been on, so maybe you only notice insults when they are directed at you?
Comparisons are also made with racism (usually in the civil rights days in the US - another anachronistic and erroneous comparison).

How on earth anyone ever came to that conclusion I don't know but I won't ask what twisted interpretation of my words led there, I don't want to know the person who said it.
Well, the only way you will find out why it was said is by asking the person who said it. Walking away when you hear something you don't like might make life easier, but it's not very good for self-reflection.

But I was young in the 90s and I remember my friends finally standing up and coming out and how beautiful amd freeing that was. I also remember the push back and the absolute awful things people said back then. If any gay person committed any sort of crime it was used against all gay people. People didn't want us in communal changing spaces and public toilets and saw usbas some sort of threat.
I think all of us remember when gay people were demonised. Many of us are able to remember Section 28, and when AIDS was known as the Gay Plague. That doesn't mean that we supported any of it, or that we didn't have gay friends. The law of averages suggests that there will be gay people posting on this thread, and others who define as straight but have had gay experiences. You will not be not alone in that, either.

Now trans people are being held responsible for crimes they did not commit so yes it does remind me of how things were back then and it really shocks me.
No. Transpeople are not being held responsible for crimes they did not commit. What people are saying is that men are committing crimes whilst claiming to be transpeople. That is not the same thing.

As a consequence of the fact that some men fake trans status to gain access to vulnerable women, society can react one of two ways. We can either protect women and insist on sex-based segregation when women are vulnerable, or we can say that the feelings of men who want to be women override concern for female safety. I would prefer the former, as the law exists to protect the innocent.

As every person I've spoken to on this thread has been entirely accepting towards gay people so obviously were accepting back then... I'm just surprised the way trans people are supposed to publicly denounce or apologise for criminal behaviour they aren't responsible for.
I agree.
However, I don't link the two things. What has acceptance of gay people got to do with what anyone expects of trans people? Nothing. It is this insistence on linking views about trans people in the 2020s with views on gay people in the 1970s (which were not even held by those on this thread) that is in question.

Also, it is not specific criminal acts that anyone is asking transpeople to apologise for. You have got the wrong end of that stick, I think. What many would like to see is an admission that there are men who are using the cover of trans status to gain access to women, and to benefit their lives in other ways, eg by having an 'easier' time in a women's jail. Such an admission, and a common-sense, solutions-based approach to dealing with that would go a long way to helping the trans cause.

Trans people are seen as a threat in changing spaces and public bathrooms and gekd responsible for crimes they didnt commit.
No. Transpeople are not seen as responsible for crimes they didn't commit. They are seen as potentially being men who want to access female spaces for sexual gratification. Many identify as 'lesbian males', (aka heterosexual men) and for various reasons a lot of women do not want them in changing spaces and public bathrooms around teenage girls and other women who are physically weaker than they are. In the same way as most non-trans heterosexual men are not a threat to women in changing rooms etc, they should not be allowed in, as there are some of their number who will be dangerous. That is simply equality, and non-discrimination.

I remember how that felt
How what felt? What crimes were you accused of? Obviously you don't need to go into detail, but as you work with children I assume that they weren't sexual in nature? Or that if they were you were completely exonerated. As would most innocent people be.

The comparisons I draw are strong
Again, difficult to comment without knowing what you mean.

Jaxjacky

Second trans person approved for move to women’s prison

news.sky.com/story/fresh-trans-prisoner-row-as-girls-stalker-approved-for-move-to-womens-jail-12797405

Stalked a 13 year old whilst male.

I've posted a couple of links to this charmer, who may identify as a transwoman, but still remains male. You can change your gender identity but not your sex.

I was having flings with women in the nineties, none of this reminds me of what was happening back then. Well other than that there were a few idiot men wondering around saying they were a lesbian on the inside. We laughed at those men as it was a way to diffuse that homophobia. Transmen are welcome in any female services, it would be incredibly dangerous for them to be in Male prisons for example, it is men who are are not welcome in womens services.

lol typical passive aggressive response