Universities told *not* to train extra doctors

ronib

The consultants through the BMA voted not to increase numbers of medical school places.

The BMA hasn't been that helpful in finding solutions.

Why aren't we considering reintroducing the old 'convalescent homes' that do not need highly trained medical staff. It's not just older people who 'bed block' younger people who live alone or are just not well enough to be left alone for long are also kept in hospital beyond medical necessity. That doesn't address the need for more training places for doctors and nurses, but would make better use of the resources we currently have.

If anyone wants to read what was said

BMA meeting Doctors vote to limit number of medical students
Andrew Cole
BMJ 2008 337:a748

Meanwhile - from todays news.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64410821
A new medical school is opening in North Wales.

We need an increase in both Nursing and Doctor training places - there is nearly always a drop out rate to factor in and this needs to be allowed for to ensure a decent completion rate.
My exH was training for Mental Health Nursing some 30+ years ago and the drop out rate on his course was so high that those left had to repeat a year already completed to be able to continue training.

Casdon

Meanwhile - from todays news.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64410821
A new medical school is opening in North Wales.

How did that get passed the BMA? Or is
Wales exempt from its oversight?

ronib

Casdon

Meanwhile - from todays news.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64410821
A new medical school is opening in North Wales.

How did that get passed the BMA? Or is
Wales exempt from its oversight?

No, the BMA is nationwide. It’s an advisory body, not in control of medical school numbers, and it looks from the article that there was widespread support from doctors in North Wales for the proposal. As they are the ones who will be providing the training placements that must have carried the vote in favour.

ronib I assume this would have been the BMA decision making body.
www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/uk-national-and-regional-councils/uk-and-national/welsh-council

Casdon

ronib I assume this would have been the BMA decision making body.
www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/uk-national-and-regional-councils/uk-and-national/welsh-council

Well I hope the common sense crawls over the border!

There are new medical schools opening, but they are not all allowed to take UK students. The one in Gloucester has been in the news for this. Places for medical schools are hugely oversubscribed. My GD2 has her heart set on becoming a doctor. She has a clutch of grade 9s at GCSE, is predicted to get 3A*s at A level and will still be very lucky to get a place in 2024. You don't get to choose a medical school anymore, you go where you can get a place.

Mamie

There are new medical schools opening, but they are not all allowed to take UK students. The one in Gloucester has been in the news for this. Places for medical schools are hugely oversubscribed. My GD2 has her heart set on becoming a doctor. She has a clutch of grade 9s at GCSE, is predicted to get 3A*s at A level and will still be very lucky to get a place in 2024. You don't get to choose a medical school anymore, you go where you can get a place.

You’re referring to England only I think Mamie, Welsh Government is directly funding the Bangor medical school, places are open for UK students, they want to recruit people who will want to work in North Wales after qualifying.

My best advice for your granddaughter is to plan a year out before applying, and to work in a clinical support role in the NHS, or apply to do VSO. That will give her a head and shoulders advantage over other applicants to medical school, they have so many applications with the right qualifications that you need to stand out from the crowd.. I know two people who did that, and both got in on their first attempt.

She will apply Casdon and take a year out if she doesn't get in first time.
She might apply to Bangor, DH and I met in fresher's week there. 😂

Fingers crossed for her Mamie, it would be lovely if she did end up at the same university where you met your husband.

Such a beautiful place. 😊🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

Casdon do you realise that Cuba provides trained medics to third world countries, as well as having a full number for home use, or so it is suggested online. It seems to offer a different way of training to the way we train here. Much more hospital based training I think. Just seems to me that the system we have here isn’t the only way model available?

Aveline

Grantanow I know what you mean re intermediate doctors. Nurse practitioners are one idea but I know there are people called physicians assistants in America. No easy answers though.

The UK now offers two-year Physician Associate courses. A PA might be hospital or GP surgery-based. I thought they were a good idea but my medic dd has her reservations about them, due to the limitations of their training.

We don’t train in one way in the UK these days ronib, this is an example of the different routes.
www.imperial.ac.uk/medicine/study/clinical-academic-training-office/training-pathways-for-doctors/
The problem in the UK is broadly down to lack of funding to train enough doctors to meet our needs, and a failure to retain them once they are trained.

ronib

Casdon do you realise that Cuba provides trained medics to third world countries, as well as having a full number for home use, or so it is suggested online. It seems to offer a different way of training to the way we train here. Much more hospital based training I think. Just seems to me that the system we have here isn’t the only way model available?

My understanding is that it's the hospital placements which are the problem. Universities are fine with teaching the theory and want to offer more places, but finding practical placements and first jobs is problematic. Senior hospital staff and GPs, who would be doing the mentoring, say that they don't have the time to do the job properly.

Yes that is what I have read Growstuff. Some UK students are going to Eastern Europe or Greece to train.

We are desperatelty short of doctors since the disaster of brexit.

We have a large number of highly qualified highly motivated applicants for medical school.

We should be prioritising training as many doctors as possible as quickly as we can.

One of my grandchildren wants to be a doctor and has discovered she could train in the Netherlands to become a doctor free of charge if she was an EU citizen. Although she lives in an EU country (her parents joined the brexit brain drain), she is, unfortunately, still British and so that option is closed to her.

HousePlantQueen

It does seem extraordinary, but ( and I am certainly not excusing the government), I understand that the problem lies with the post university training, when medicine graduates have to find a training place, there is something of a shortage I believe. The degree is only the first part of a doctor's training

I understand that the problem lies with the post university training, when medicine graduates have to find a training place, there is something of a shortage I believe.

Oh, not again!
This happened about 20 years ago when we lost a lot of medical graduates to overseas countries due to shortage of training places.
Our loss, their gain.

growstuff

ronib

Casdon do you realise that Cuba provides trained medics to third world countries, as well as having a full number for home use, or so it is suggested online. It seems to offer a different way of training to the way we train here. Much more hospital based training I think. Just seems to me that the system we have here isn’t the only way model available?

My understanding is that it's the hospital placements which are the problem. Universities are fine with teaching the theory and want to offer more places, but finding practical placements and first jobs is problematic. Senior hospital staff and GPs, who would be doing the mentoring, say that they don't have the time to do the job properly.

It’s a chicken and egg situation. The hospital doctors don’t have the time to mentor students because they are running round like headless chickens due to the pressures on the NHS. You also have to bear in mind that nearly all doctors up to consultant level are also still in training themselves, and need to pass a series of (very challenging) exams to progress to the next grade. They are under huge pressure. It’s going to take a long time to put this right.

SueDonim

There is an issue with there not being enough places for students on clinical training and after graduation, not enough places for junior doctors to get onto specialty training. The whole thing needs picking up, turning upside down and shaking throughly to get a system that’s ‘fit for purpose’.

I see you have said this is what is happening SueDonim.

It is so short-sighted.

varian

We are desperatelty short of doctors since the disaster of brexit.

We have a large number of highly qualified highly motivated applicants for medical school.

We should be prioritising training as many doctors as possible as quickly as we can.

One of my grandchildren wants to be a doctor and has discovered she could train in the Netherlands to become a doctor free of charge if she was an EU citizen. Although she lives in an EU country (her parents joined the brexit brain drain), she is, unfortunately, still British and so that option is closed to her.

But presumably the Netherlands would have some expectation that those they trained for free would remain in the Netherlands providing medical care? I know a family whose son did his medical training in an Eastern European country (can't remember which) but he paid for his training and is now back in England and wanting to eventually train to be a GP. The country he trained in train many more doctors than they could ever employ, enjoy the resultant income, and do not expect foreign nationals to stay after training.

Cuba has an excess of trained medics so a hospital based training system is viable. Also salaries for doctors are kept at a low level so more numbers are viable.

This is not meant to be a hostile remark but I have noticed that bright, academically gifted females are often encouraged by their parents to go to medical school. I wonder if there’s a problem with retention amongst young mothers who are unable to combine motherhood with medicine? What steps could be taken to bring about a change of approach? It might be that three small children is the number which stops a medical career? All I know is that I met a young doctor who was living in Holland and there it’s common practice for mothers to go back to work after 3 months maternity leave. She said everyone does this!