Universities told *not* to train extra doctors

Aveline

Grantanow I know what you mean re intermediate doctors. Nurse practitioners are one idea but I know there are people called physicians assistants in America. No easy answers though.

I suspect there would still be issues with finding training places for and mentoring of physicians assistants.

What a mess!

The consultants through the BMA voted not to increase numbers of medical school places.

Grantanow I know what you mean re intermediate doctors. Nurse practitioners are one idea but I know there are people called physicians assistants in America. No easy answers though.

I know HPQ. It's probably just as well the 40 new hospitals haven't materialised because there wouldn't be any doctors to work in them

growstuff

I've just Googled this because I thought maybe I was imagining it (I wasn't). In 2019, Boris Johnson promised 6000 extra doctors in the NHS. Where did he think they were coming from? It couldn't have been a figment of his imagination. could it?

That man Johnson promised a lot of things growstuff No more selling your house to pay for a nursing home, 40 new hospitals, 20,000 new police officers, 50,000 new nurses, £350m a week to the NHS......and a lot of people were fooled by him voted for the Tories on that basis.

Baggs - I agree that 'commonsense' solutions may not be the best ones: complex problems may need complex solutions beyond the wit of saloon bar thinkers and the doctor shortage has been longstanding with little attempt to solve it beyond Johnsonian fantasy. Demand on the NHS has clearly increased due to population, the possibility of new treatments, local housing developments and increased public expectations. Extra funding for training and placements ought to be part of the solution but it may be that there is a limited UK pool of potential medical students amongst school leavers, perhaps on grounds of ability or aptitude and because of competing industries for the best minds. Perhaps we ought to be looking at splitting the profession to accommodate a second tier with intermediate diagnostic and treatment skills. Not an ideal solution, I suspect, and hard to sell. I recall the Chinese introduced 'barefoot' doctors to alleviate a shortage there.

I've just Googled this because I thought maybe I was imagining it (I wasn't). In 2019, Boris Johnson promised 6000 extra doctors in the NHS. Where did he think they were coming from? It couldn't have been a figment of his imagination. could it?

We need an increase in nurse training places too.

fancythat

Sorry, but I smell rats in lots of places.

Succinct summing up, fancythat. Rat-catchers definitely needed!

Sorry, but I smell rats in lots of places.

Of course it would have nothing to do with causing a shortage of home grown Doctors and therefore having to recruit from abroad.

I agree with your points , grantanow, but I doubt it's as simple as such common sense would suggest. Why? Because the same problem of not enough doctors being trained existed when my brother began his medical training in 1973. It is actually quite baffling that such an apparently intractable problem could exist for so long and still not be solved. We need some political genius (or several!) on this one.

On the other hand, why need it be political rather than market driven or GMC/BMA droven? Open question there so knee jerk reactions not necessary. I'm genuinely baffled.

Of course the Tories are limiting the number of doctors in training by not organising on going placements post-degree. They could expand the number of university medical school places by paying the universities more and expand the number of training places in hospitals by paying the NHS to creat more junior doctor posts. And they could increase the pay if more senior doctors to retain them and attract some from the private sector to provide additional training supervision. Having seen this Tory government at work over the past 12 years I doubt they will take action because they don't care. Just look at the present state of the NHS and the failure to expand general practice infrastructure where more housing has been built. My town has some 600 extra houses and the 200 more approved but no increase in health centre or dentist provision. It's a disgrace.

SueDonim

There is an issue with there not being enough places for students on clinical training and after graduation, not enough places for junior doctors to get onto specialty training. The whole thing needs picking up, turning upside down and shaking throughly to get a system that’s ‘fit for purpose’.

I agree. It would seem that a sensible solution might be a gradual increase in places. It would be easier to find the extra placements and eventually the extra staff would feed through the system to train further new recruits, etc.

Rosie51

As long as there's capacity to train more doctors to the same high quality why on earth would you baulk at doing so? It makes no sense. I could understand if the problem was that increased numbers would involve a lowering of standards, but I don't see any suggestion of this.

Although students themselves pay some of the fees, the government still pays a substantial amount towards medical degrees. It appears it doesn't want to increase the amount.

Having thought about it, it could be to do with the cap. Maybe the funding has already been allocated to the universities already offering places. There's no cap on overseas students.

I think it's something to do with the UCAS accreditation because it's only just started offering medical degrees. The website states it intends to offer places to home students as soon as possible.

GrannySomerset

Why is Brunei’s new doctor training only available to overseas students?

Do you mean Brunel? Brunel has only just started offering medical degrees. I have no idea why it only offers places to overseas students. Do you have a link?

I've just mentioned this on another thread. Sorry for the duplication.

Why is Brunei’s new doctor training only available to overseas students?

There is an issue with there not being enough places for students on clinical training and after graduation, not enough places for junior doctors to get onto specialty training. The whole thing needs picking up, turning upside down and shaking throughly to get a system that’s ‘fit for purpose’.

It does seem extraordinary, but ( and I am certainly not excusing the government), I understand that the problem lies with the post university training, when medicine graduates have to find a training place, there is something of a shortage I believe. The degree is only the first part of a doctor's training

As long as there's capacity to train more doctors to the same high quality why on earth would you baulk at doing so? It makes no sense. I could understand if the problem was that increased numbers would involve a lowering of standards, but I don't see any suggestion of this.

It does seem weird.