Who do you believe: Sunak or the IMF?

As usual, the internet gives varying figures… depending on the site. So pretty pointless exercise.

Some fairly ordinary people would really like much less interference in their ordinary lives but that’s really not going to be understood here?

ronib

Daisy Anne the civil service currently employs 513,000 people.
I think it’s a pretty high number for this country.
I can see no evidence of the government attempting to destroy the public sector. In fact I thought it was increasing with a vengeance?

ICAEW extract:

‘Public administration is down from 20 years ago, with 966,000 FTEs in June 2021 compared with 998,000 two decades previously. FTEs increased to a peak of 1,081,000 in June 2005 before falling gradually to 1,010,000 in June 2010, followed by more significant falls following the financial crisis. Most of the net fall represents fewer public servants in local government since the financial crisis , with civil servants in central government only slightly below where they were 20 years ago at 465,000 FTEs in June 2021 compared with 492,000 in June 2001. The total would have been much lower but for a post-Brexit surge in the size of the civil service, which has grown by 20% from its nadir of 384,000 FTEs in June 2016.’

Daisy Anne some examples would be helpful if you have any.

Daisy Anne the civil service currently employs 513,000 people.
I think it’s a pretty high number for this country.
I can see no evidence of the government attempting to destroy the public sector. In fact I thought it was increasing with a vengeance?

ronib

I am very confused by your comments. You must be aware of the large salaries paid to managers in the NHS, senior civil servants, and a whole host of public sector workers at management level. Paid for by the tax payer.

Who is far right?

I'm not sure why you had problems ronib. A government that wants to destroy the public sector and increase the private sector, at the expense of those who use the public sector, would be one definition of the far right. You seem to agree with them doing this ronib.

You really don't have to have qualifications in recruitment to know that, if there are qualified people available and they are leaving a great variety of public sector jobs in their droves, there is something wrong with the pay and conditions, or do you have another explanation for this?

fancythat

Katie59

“And now let's imagine that you're an entrepreneur and want to set up a business in a third world country, where hardly anybody has had any education and there is almost no medical care.”

The Third World countries I have been to basic education is fairly good in urban areas.
It would be very difficult for a westerner to set up a business the local corruption would make it impossible, if you had a local politician as a partner it would be easier but don’t trust him.

I would agree.
Times have moved on in lots of 3rd world countries.
By no means all of them though.

Times have moved on for the worst, governments don’t want western influences and it’s very difficult to get residency permits now in many states, citizen employees only regardless of ability.

ronib

MaizieD I was trying to make sense of Daisy Anne’s comments about how public servants are in short supply and not properly paid. At management level this doesn’t appear to be the case.
In fact the civil service is burgeoning.

I imagine though that PhD researchers, academics etc are in short supply and poorly paid in the public sector . I was just trying to point out that they have opportunities. Good ones with potential life saving products in development and can be very lucrative too.

Please don’t suggest my belief or not in a mixed economy as a result of these statements.

I would say there is no shortage of PhD researchers and acedemics.
Though pay is on average poor, considering the amount of years studying and work put in.
Either in private or public sector.
I talk generally.
And depends on peoples' definition of poor.
And that is the case in the Uk and republic of Ireland.
Couldnt speak for Europe and elsewhere.

Katie59

“And now let's imagine that you're an entrepreneur and want to set up a business in a third world country, where hardly anybody has had any education and there is almost no medical care.”

The Third World countries I have been to basic education is fairly good in urban areas.
It would be very difficult for a westerner to set up a business the local corruption would make it impossible, if you had a local politician as a partner it would be easier but don’t trust him.

I would agree.
Times have moved on in lots of 3rd world countries.
By no means all of them though.

ronib

fancythat

IT security, or It for that matter, you dont always need Phds as far as I am aware.
But I take your point.

About 30 years ago a certain phd working in IT security sold his company for £16 million. Depends what you want out of life I guess.

I was talking in general
And generally they do not have PhDs

MaizieD I was trying to make sense of Daisy Anne’s comments about how public servants are in short supply and not properly paid. At management level this doesn’t appear to be the case.
In fact the civil service is burgeoning.

I imagine though that PhD researchers, academics etc are in short supply and poorly paid in the public sector . I was just trying to point out that they have opportunities. Good ones with potential life saving products in development and can be very lucrative too.

Please don’t suggest my belief or not in a mixed economy as a result of these statements.

ronib

I am very confused by your comments. You must be aware of the large salaries paid to managers in the NHS, senior civil servants, and a whole host of public sector workers at management level. Paid for by the tax payer.

Who is far right?

You must also be aware of the extremely high salaries paid to managers and executives in the private sector. Also paid for by 'the taxpayer.'

What is wrong with giving people proper remuneration for doing a high powered and responsible job?

Who do you believe: Sunak or the IMF?

Neither.

In reply to Daisy Anne

I am very confused by your comments. You must be aware of the large salaries paid to managers in the NHS, senior civil servants, and a whole host of public sector workers at management level. Paid for by the tax payer.

Who is far right?

“And now let's imagine that you're an entrepreneur and want to set up a business in a third world country, where hardly anybody has had any education and there is almost no medical care.”

The Third World countries I have been to basic education is fairly good in urban areas.
It would be very difficult for a westerner to set up a business the local corruption would make it impossible, if you had a local politician as a partner it would be easier but don’t trust him.

ronib

Whitewavemark2 PhD scientists can command salaries in excess of £120k with start ups in the Uk plus share options. I understand how you feel about your son but in fact scientists with entrepreneurial skills can become very wealthy both here and abroad.
There’s no way that the State can compete with these financial opportunities . At the end of the day, it’s a personal choice about the direction of travel.

There’s no way that the State can compete with these financial opportunities.

I really don't understand this thinking. At any other time, those on the far right, opposed, as you seem to be, to a mixed economy, will go to great lengths to tell us the person with the extreme salary, share options, etc., is paid this because they would not get them otherwise.

Obviously, you can keep salaries down by ensuring more people can do the job. This government neither pays those we are short of properly nor sets out to increase those doing the job. That is simply incompetence.

As for not being able to complete, everything a government does is a choice. Of course, they could choose to pay these people properly.

fancythat

IT security, or It for that matter, you dont always need Phds as far as I am aware.
But I take your point.

About 30 years ago a certain phd working in IT security sold his company for £16 million. Depends what you want out of life I guess.

IT security, or It for that matter, you dont always need Phds as far as I am aware.
But I take your point.

fancythat

I havent been foloowing this this morning.

I have a few points but the conversation has moved on.

hyperinflation will definitely not be helped by huge worker pay rises. not that we are likely heading to hyperinflation now thankfully.

cant say i like much the idea, well private salaries have risen so public ones should too. Does the world work like that? not sure.

Would love to know which sector the Phd scientists with salaries over £120k work in.
Certainly not research I would have thought?

I think the current thinking is that printing of money certainly contributes to inflation. But it depends where the money ends up going. If it goes to prop up Banks, it isnt so inflationary?

Okay definitely research in microfluidics is attracting major investment at the moment. Definitely state of the art research.
Other very high paying areas - IT and IT security, and yes you do need to keep up with latest developments. Oil industry is paying megabucks but probably not requiring phd.

Also the other point which I can’t understand is that traditionally civil servants, teachers and academics were all grade bands so that each year, salaries rise to the next increment. Usually when you reached the top of the scale, you would apply for promotion to the next band. Has this stopped?

Of course it’s a major economic problem if 50000 excess deaths are occurring. Don’t assume it’s the pensioners necessarily who are dying!

I havent been foloowing this this morning.

I have a few points but the conversation has moved on.

hyperinflation will definitely not be helped by huge worker pay rises. not that we are likely heading to hyperinflation now thankfully.

cant say i like much the idea, well private salaries have risen so public ones should too. Does the world work like that? not sure.

Would love to know which sector the Phd scientists with salaries over £120k work in.
Certainly not research I would have thought?

I think the current thinking is that printing of money certainly contributes to inflation. But it depends where the money ends up going. If it goes to prop up Banks, it isnt so inflationary?

MaizieD

^I certainly don’t think in terms of givers and takers. That’s far too emotional.^

As you then claim that half the population is being supported by the other half of the population it seems that that is exactly what you are thinking.

Just pretend you are a Martian and observe.
Forget all the baggage and really look.
Takes some doing and not everyone is up for it.

And I forgot that (as an entrepreneur) you're going to need infrastructure to transport your goods and communicate with people and defend your country and deal with crime and and and ...

I certainly don’t think in terms of givers and takers. That’s far too emotional.

As you then claim that half the population is being supported by the other half of the population it seems that that is exactly what you are thinking.

ronib

Growstuff I agree that we need healthy and well educated people but there are some very alarming statistics on excess deaths which my husband is following with almost too much interest. I don’t want to think about it, it’s too depressing.

I certainly don’t think in terms of givers and takers. That’s far too emotional. Just try to visualise a population pyramid on a piece of paper. At the moment, I understand from some commentators that only half the pyramid is able to provide for itself and for the other half.

And now let's imagine that you're an entrepreneur and want to set up a business in a third world country, where hardly anybody has had any education and there is almost no medical care.

You're going to need workers. They're not going to be much good to you, if they can't understand or write written instructions, can't do basic maths and don't know how to operate a computer - and that's at a very basic level. You're probably going to want people who can understand science and technology to maintain your computers and equipment and even do some R&D.

They won't be much good either, if they keep getting ill and there's no medical care or medications to patch them up and send them back to work.

Education and healthcare are an investment not a cost.

I have no idea who these "commentators" are, but their argument is flawed. Many people on GN are pensioners and don't work. There's an epidemic of pearl clutching when it's suggested that state pensions are a benefit, but that's what they are. People have paid for them during their working lives (although not into individual "pots") and deserve them. Why can't people understand that most people's lives are like that? They pay in when they have fewer needs and receive support when they need it.