Censorship or rewriting ?

NO censorship.

Debate Dahl and let him stand or fall by his work.

If enough people find his books offensive, they will eventually fall out of favour and people will stop reading them.

If you want to, you can find fault with my namesake, Dickens, he has a talent for stereotyping based on characteristics that many will find offensive.

Personally I don't want to see any Literature or Art censored or doctored or made 'palatable' - even if it upsets me - unless such is an obvious incitement to violence and 'recommends' hatred of a particular demographic.

There's a reason why particular authors gradually fall out of fashion - because they become irrelevant and no-one reads them anymore. That should be the only censorship IMO. Let their works gather dust - but they are an accurate reflection of the times in which they were written, they are in fact, part of human history.

NotSpaghetti

There were always some aspects of Dahl that were "off" and we discussed it with our children.
Sometimes even books we don't like much are a learning thing.

I think that is the way forward NotSpaghetti discuss the books with your children, don't censor them.

Glorianny

FannyCornforth

The Witches was definitely anti- Semitic. They were hook nosed; bald under their wigs; printed money; and kidnapped children (a reference to blood libel conspiracies).
Dahl was notoriously anti Jew.
He said, ‘even a stinker like Hitler didn’t pick them for no reason’.

I've always regarded The Witches as a slur on older women, whose noses look longer and who lose their hair and steal children because they don't have any. They were balanced by Luke's grandmother who cared for him.
Dahl was unpleasant in a lot of ways.

Yes that's how I tended to view witches, a slur on older women depicted in quite a horrible way of being a hag or crone, hook nose, warts 'an all, not very nice really, but the stuff of fairy tales for such a long time. My recollection of the Witches wasn't something I'd relate to anti Semitism, although allegedly Roald Dahl was an anti Semite. I didn't know that much about him back then when his books became popular with my children, other than he had a back injury sustained as a pilot in the war I believe, was married to Patricia Neal, they lost one of their children and he lived in Bucks and his granddaughter was Sophie Dahl. There would be among authors, like any section of society, some flawed individuals I imagine.

Of course if you want your grandchildren to read them, you can talk about all kinds of issues (providing you read it yourself first!). But little kids get these books out of the library, or read them on their own in school, and don't have a chance to discuss them with an adult.
I don't want censorship either, for adults, but taking the golliwogs out of Noddy is just updating them, not censorship. I'm sure there are still copies about if you want golliwogs in them.

Ridiculous waste of time. Where will this end? Shall we take the whale out of Moby Dick because it might scare the reader?

R D wasn’t an entirely pleasant man but he wrote fantastic books for children. Part of the joy of reading at any age, but especially throughout childhood Is being shocked and scared. We took our grandchikdren to Matilda the musical. They’d had the book read more than once, the two 7 year olds were frightened of Mrs Trunchball because she’s cruel to children and puts them in the chokey. Both of them hid their faces at times but had a great time.

GrannyGravy13

FannyCornforth

Same here GrannyGravy
I was a specialist Reading Teacher in working a mainstream Secondary School.
Most of my clientele were reluctant boys.

Four sons and a daughter here, DH and I were/are voracious readers all children were reluctant.

If it wasn’t for Roald Dahl, Tolkien and for the youngest JK Rowling I would have been pulling my hair out.

Yes! your post definitely resonates GG, similarly, husband and I are both voracious readers, as is one of my sons, in fact he reads far heavier stuff than we might pick up nowadays. My reluctant reader rarely reads a book anymore, he would say he hasn't got the time, it's a choice though he prefers screen time to unwind. However when he was a child I spent more time trying to point him towards books that I thought he might enjoy than my other one who was a natural bookworm, when he did find such material it was The Dahls, particularly The Witches and all The Potters I just thanked God he at least found some books he could be enthusiastic about. When he's here, I've kept a lot of their childhood favourites, he will go through our shelves and pull out certain books telling his children how much he enjoyed them, they've started on the HPs now.

I think that a few posters are not considering Dahl’s books use in schools.
I can think of only Julia Donaldson who is featured so widely and comprehensively in UK primary schools.
If teachers decide (rightly or wrongly) to stop using Dahl’s work, then it’s only burgeoning young readers who will suffer.
A necessary evil perhaps.
As I said up thread, this decision won’t have been taken lightly

Sorry I got engrossed by the story - that’s the point is nt it
No don’t censor Dhal

Chardy

Of course if you want your grandchildren to read them, you can talk about all kinds of issues (providing you read it yourself first!). But little kids get these books out of the library, or read them on their own in school, and don't have a chance to discuss them with an adult.
I don't want censorship either, for adults, but taking the golliwogs out of Noddy is just updating them, not censorship. I'm sure there are still copies about if you want golliwogs in them.

taking the golliwog out of Noddy

this could be looked at from the point of view that the only toy of colour has been airbrushed out of Toyland.

So, would we tolerate stories containing rapists or child molesters (probably yes, given that Michale Jackson's music is still around)?

I wonder how BAME people would feel about this issue? Because otherwise, it's just white people advocating acceptance of racism again.

GrannyGravy13

Chardy

Of course if you want your grandchildren to read them, you can talk about all kinds of issues (providing you read it yourself first!). But little kids get these books out of the library, or read them on their own in school, and don't have a chance to discuss them with an adult.
I don't want censorship either, for adults, but taking the golliwogs out of Noddy is just updating them, not censorship. I'm sure there are still copies about if you want golliwogs in them.

taking the golliwog out of Noddy

this could be looked at from the point of view that the only toy of colour has been airbrushed out of Toyland.

Or maybe just put a person of colour in instead of a racist caricature?

Don’t forget Madame Butterfly, or many other operas…

GagaJo

GrannyGravy13

Chardy

Of course if you want your grandchildren to read them, you can talk about all kinds of issues (providing you read it yourself first!). But little kids get these books out of the library, or read them on their own in school, and don't have a chance to discuss them with an adult.
I don't want censorship either, for adults, but taking the golliwogs out of Noddy is just updating them, not censorship. I'm sure there are still copies about if you want golliwogs in them.

taking the golliwog out of Noddy

this could be looked at from the point of view that the only toy of colour has been airbrushed out of Toyland.

Or maybe just put a person of colour in instead of a racist caricature?

I haven’t watched Noddy for many many years.

From my memory they were Toys, not people.

What do you know about the publishers who are undertaking this. I am always astounded that people will hand control of words to people they know nothing about.

We had a member of staff who hated Dahl and always chose different authors to teach. I think this was fine. He was covered in other classes and these days his work is found all over the place, so children will know about it.
Of course it may become like some books which were censored, with original copies being passed around. Who knows it might make them more attractive. Instead of accessing unsuitable things online children will secretly pass round the originals

GagaJo

So, would we tolerate stories containing rapists or child molesters (probably yes, given that Michale Jackson's music is still around)?

I wonder how BAME people would feel about this issue? Because otherwise, it's just white people advocating acceptance of racism again.

By being anti censorship does not mean that (white) people are advocating racism. I have recently read John Grisham's first novel "A Time to Kill" which is set in a fictional town in Mississippi. In this book the n word is used frequently by both blacks and whites. It was published in 1989 and reading it in 2023 I felt a little uncomfortable but I accept that the language used was common in 1989.

Mark Twain has been added to the list of authors whose writings should be changed.

If you are reader of crime novels child molesters and rapists are often mentioned. These crimes happen in real life as we know so well.

When I was a child I read the Greyfriars School novels which featured Billy Bunter. That didn't make me fat shame any overweight person that I met.

If I was a supporter of changing texts my first choice would be the Tenant of Wildfell Hall, which is hailed by many as the first feminist novel. I found Helen Graham to be rather wimpish and irritating but women did not have the freedom that they now have and I accept that.

I find the current cries for censorship appalling. How are we to know what earlier generations felt and thought if the words they wrote are to altered to suit current sensibilities.

I was reading Stephen King books in my very early teens, they addressed the issues of child abuse frequently.

Great books written in a different time, use the language to educate children not just remove it to gloss over it. What a strange world we are living in, where some very young children can be exposed to some real threatening content a world where people are rightly encouraged to be more understanding, excepting and diverse, but yet the reality is a modern world that sees the worst kind on people printing, trolling, radicalising our young. And someone’s worried about the use of the words ‘ugly & fat’ crazy!

Do children when they read The Witches say 'this is anti semetic'? I doubt it. My GCs read it and found it fun.
This is adults making choices for children who just think witches are ugly hook nosed people as have been depicted through history.
I don't like people who think they know better making choices for me.

My reading matter as a child was Grimm’s Fairy Tales which wouldn’t be recommended I imagine, in todays climate. I don’t think I’ve become a more sadistic person because of that early experience.

My children read Dahl’s books and liked some, but not all. I think it is important that we know what children are reading, and that we can discuss and sometimes challenge possible contentious content with them. Books and films have some influence on children, but there are so many wider influences, from parents, family, school and society for example.

This recent fuss about Dahl’s books has come about because Netflix have just spent millions on the rights to them apparently.

I think it is important that we know what children are reading, and that we can discuss and sometimes challenge possible contentious content with them.

Exactly Farzanah!

AGAA4

Do children when they read The Witches say 'this is anti semetic'? I doubt it. My GCs read it and found it fun.
This is adults making choices for children who just think witches are ugly hook nosed people as have been depicted through history.
I don't like people who think they know better making choices for me.

Is your family Jewish? Would you be OK with Jewish children reading it?

GagaJo that is a personal question which you shouldn't be asking. My religion has nothing to do with you.

It’s shocking and upsetting to realise that what we believed to be benign may not be so.
But we have to encounter it, employ critical thinking and develop nuanced responses.
I’m sorry if that sounds preachy or ‘woke’.
I assure you that I’m neither