Jailed for manslaughter

The answer isn’t locking people away as it’s expensive (and inhumane)

The answer is putting money into social care which is less expensive

If this woman had a disability and was in community care/supported living then she should have had a care assessment and risk assessment in place to stop this happening in the first place. Instead, someone had died and a vulnerable person has been put in prison

I haven’t read the surrounding media articles but it sounds like her neighbours have reported anti social behaviour but professionals haven’t “signposted” escalation properly either

That’s it tho isn’t it? All a bit woolly about who could really use the pavement there.Implication, custom, practice and so on.
What’s needed are either proper designated cyclepaths or cycle users should be confident enough to use their vehicle on the road.No half measures and unclear messages.

ronib

Quokka there are a few issues with the shared path as

1. I don’t believe it was signed as a shared path in 2020 therefore it wasn’t shared.
2. It’s width is thought to be 2.4 metres which is insufficient for a shared path according to current regulations which suggest a minimum of 3 metres.
3. The partially sighted pedestrian did not wait until the last minute to express agitation at the possibility of a cyclist apparently on a collision course but started waving her hands and shouting as a protective mechanism.

It was a shared path by custom and practice though. The judge at Peterborough Crown Court said the woman’s actions were "not explained by disability" and that the pavement was a "shared path on the ring road".
The implication is that it was acknowledged by the council that cyclists regularly used the path because it was dangerous for them to use the ring road.

Also, if you view the video the arm waving started very shortly before the cyclist reached the pedestrian. What alternative would the cyclist have had at that point, other than to veer down the kerb onto a busy ring road?

JaneJudge

Dickens, you have really annoyed me with this othering in your post. The institutions were shut down but no other infrastructure has been properly put in place, parents in their 70s, 60s and 50s and downwards are coping alone with very little respite for their children or siblings with complex needs. I don’t know what advocacy this woman had in place but these people are human beings and if their needs are met properly by social and health care they can live happy live ms that they don’t find so challenging

This isn’t a personal attack btw so shouldn’t be deleted or taken personal as people I live annoy me aswell

I don’t know what advocacy this woman had in place but these people are human beings and if their needs are met properly by social and health care they can live happy live ms that they don’t find so challenging

But their needs are not met are they?

I speak from experience. My late mother, a retired SRN, had to basically 'look after' her neighbour who was suffering from severe DID, who was aggressive and threatening to the other elderly people in the multi-occupied accommodation; had to try to coax him to take his medication, and was almost 'on call' to him - because having worked in that particular field she felt very sorry for him (and so did I because I was with her sometimes when she had to try to calm him).

I am not blaming the victims or 'othering' them, it is the whole system of care that is in tatters. This man really was so disturbed by his 'demons' that he could not live within the community in any meaningful sense. When he was quiet and calm (which always worried my mother) he was unhappy and depressed. Ultimately, she contacted his doctor - I think she was afraid that he might injure himself or someone else.

Sometimes, people with MH problems really are too ill to be left alone on the assumption that they can lead a fairly normal life in the community if, like this man, they are living in an almost permanent state of acute crisis - this man could not. And he was miserable because he couldn't understand what was happening to him.

I'm sorry that I have annoyed you. It wasn't my intention to 'other' anyone.

Gosh one poster accuses me of being too magnanimous to this woman (because I said the sentence seemed too harsh) and now I'm being accused of othering her!

I think I'll call it a night.

Oh - and I wouldn't even attempt to get your post deleted simply because you took issue with what I wrote - I find it odd that you'd even think that!

All innocent drivers in any accident are usually badly affected by it.
3 years is a heavy sentence, but it will be half of that in reality I suppose.

25Avalon

What about the poor lady driving the car that unavoidably ploughed into the cyclist? She is traumatised by it. Another consequence of the pedestrian’s actions. 3 years does seem rather a long prison sentence but perhaps she will get help in prison and won’t have to serve the full time.

Yes, I doubt she'll get over it either.

Who?
Impossible to have somebody with her whenever in the future she wants to go out.

What about the poor lady driving the car that unavoidably ploughed into the cyclist? She is traumatised by it. Another consequence of the pedestrian’s actions. 3 years does seem rather a long prison sentence but perhaps she will get help in prison and won’t have to serve the full time.

Quokka there are a few issues with the shared path as

1. I don’t believe it was signed as a shared path in 2020 therefore it wasn’t shared.
2. It’s width is thought to be 2.4 metres which is insufficient for a shared path according to current regulations which suggest a minimum of 3 metres.
3. The partially sighted pedestrian did not wait until the last minute to express agitation at the possibility of a cyclist apparently on a collision course but started waving her hands and shouting as a protective mechanism.

JaneJudge

Also the institutions haven’t been shut down either YET but there is no place for them

I’m not sure that’s true JaneJudge, as some people will always need medical and nursing input which it would be impossible to provide in a community setting.

That didn’t apply for this lady though. The path was 2.7m wide, it should have been easy for the bike and her to share the space safely, and she did cause the accident, whatever the mitigating issues. She needs supervision in future, not in prison, but in an environment that controls her behaviour as far as it reduces the risk she causes to other people by lashing out in anger. As she is unpredictable, somebody accompanying her in public places would help.

How do you know the cyclist had every right to be on the path? I read that even the council there didn’t know, or at least said they weren’t sure.It wasn’t a proper designated cycle path and was unmarked.
I think cyclists should only be allowed to use proper marked cyclepaths and leave anything else to pedestrians and wheelchair users and Mums with buggies.

The cyclist had every right to be on the shared path. Video footage shows she was acting responsibly and the woman who was jailed was completely in the wrong. She deliberately frightened the victim who lost control and swerved onto the road under the wheels of a passing car. The young woman driving the car had a child with her and has been left traumatised.

Community care is not only for people with disabilities. Traditionally when an elderly person became unable to cope the choice was a residential home or family carers (except for the very wealthy who would opt for live-in care). The current model that enables so many to stay in their homes with community support (although fraught with funding / staffing problems atm) is the same model that is used for disabled people who need support.It works wonderfully for some & many adults released when institutions closed down are prefectly capable of choosing where they live their lives, so why should experts / significant others take that choice from them? There was also a creepy element of "out of sight, out of mind" behind the institutions.Also with regards to the lady found guilty of manslaughter, there is very little chance of special provision in prison I think as I just looked up the stats and about 30% of the current UK prison population have learning difficulties.I think the sentence is harsh, but then I often do in manslaughter cases.

Also the institutions haven’t been shut down either YET but there is no place for them

I hate my autocorrect I meant live happily Supported in the community they live in
I don’t think she was supported properly and I think that’s because of my own experience

Dickens, you have really annoyed me with this othering in your post. The institutions were shut down but no other infrastructure has been properly put in place, parents in their 70s, 60s and 50s and downwards are coping alone with very little respite for their children or siblings with complex needs. I don’t know what advocacy this woman had in place but these people are human beings and if their needs are met properly by social and health care they can live happy live ms that they don’t find so challenging

This isn’t a personal attack btw so shouldn’t be deleted or taken personal as people I live annoy me aswell

Bbc news tonight District Judge Leo Pyle stated ‘Pavements are for pedestrians and people in wheelchairs or infants in prams. They are supposed to be free of vehicles of any type’ as he sentenced 14 yr old boy on electric scooter for running over and causing death of 71 yr old woman on pavement.

I agree with Judge Pyle on pavement use.

she shouldn't really be 'put' anywhere
a full assessment of her capabilities and diagnosis's should have been carried but on reading what robinb posted it seems really unclear

Forsythia

She may have mental health issues, she may lose her home, she may be better in a care home….nevertheless because of her spiteful actions, including swearing, this poor innocent lady cyclist lost her life. The driver of the car has had her blameless life destroyed. My sympathies are not with the perpetrator. How would anybody feel if that was your mum, grandmother etc. not so magnanimous I would bet.

I was attempting to be somewhat objective. I pointed out her MH problems because I think it's usually understood that some individuals with such disabilities sometimes lack a sense of awareness of their actions. No normal person would simply carry on walking having waved a cyclist into the path of an oncoming car. If they were fully aware and did so, then they'd be a psychopath.

So there was no need to make accusations of magnanimity towards the woman - I'm not defending her, just trying to understand her very abnormal behaviour. It's what people do when there's been a terrible event like this - look for reasons because it makes us feel insecure when such 'random' things happen.

I do think the sentence was overly harsh - because IMO it will serve no useful purpose and I doubt it will teach her a lesson because I think she's beyond that. She's so far shown no remorse or sense of shame for her actions and I can't imagine she's going to sit and ponder over what she's done, if what the neighbours have said is true, she'll probably continue to rant and rave and swear at just about anyone who goes near her. Three years or thirty years would make no difference. I think she is a danger - to the public at large - in the old days before 'community care' she'd more than likely have been in an institution. I'm not a fan of community care - I don't think it works, it's under-funded and understaffed, and there have been other cases of such people being cared for within the community who have committed crimes - killed people even, because no-one's around to watch them, or make sure they take their medication, etc.

She purposely walked /strode along in the middle of the path and yes she did put her hands on her which made the cyclist lose balance and life it was manslaughter but whether she deserves prison or not I m not sure, she didn’t seem at all contrite about it

She may have mental health issues, she may lose her home, she may be better in a care home….nevertheless because of her spiteful actions, including swearing, this poor innocent lady cyclist lost her life. The driver of the car has had her blameless life destroyed. My sympathies are not with the perpetrator. How would anybody feel if that was your mum, grandmother etc. not so magnanimous I would bet.

icanhandthemback

Shared pavements work perfectly in other countries, say Germany. It is the attitude of cyclists and pedestrians that cause the problems, It seems to me that neither are tolerant of each other.
As to the lady jailed, it does seem disproportionate when you look at other offences but the judge would have looked at the police interviews, pre-sentence reports and listened to all the evidence before making that decision. No doubt the defence would have put up medical reports too. By all accounts, this lady does have anger issues so that and the lack of empathy may have swayed the judge.
Whilst the lack of liberty will be a salutary lesson, I can't help thinking that the loss of her home which has been specially adapted is going to be the most terrible sentence for the defendant. When I think of the terrible crimes committed where the defendants get the same sentence it does seem harsh. However, I don't suppose it is long enough for the victim's family or the lady driving the car.

It doesn't seem right that she should lose her home - what will she do when she's released?

I think it was too harsh a sentence and will probably do nothing in terms of rehabilitating her - in fact it might possibly make her even more unstable, and more of a 'social nuisance'. And I don't think she will be any the less of a risk after her custodial sentence is over. In truth, she would probably have been better placed in a care home - she did apparently live a very lonely and isolated life.

If you read what some of her neighbours have said about her, it's fairly obvious that she did have some mental health issues.

But, we have to assume that the judge and others involved in this case know what they are doing - and know more that we do which is only information we get via the media. And an innocent woman is dead because of her actions.

I'm really not sure about cycles and pedestrians sharing the same space - if all parties behaved with care, consideration and respect, it could work. But they don't do they? Perhaps they're better behaved in other countries...

Miranda Moore KC defended - a disabilities lawyer

did she have legal representation herself?

It sounds a very neurotypical response to someones actions when they do not understand complex disabilities.

Judge Enright forwarded his sentencing notes to the judicial press office and now available online at

www.Rosenberg.sub stack.com
Why Grey got 3 years by Joshua Rosenberg

I found it helpful.