Gransnet forums

News & politics

Junior Doctors strike

(289 Posts)
GrannyGravy13 Mon 13-Mar-23 09:31:31

The junior doctors are on strike for the next three days they are asking for a salary increase of 35%

Just wondered if any on GN think this is a reasonable increase?

I am not sure that it is…

maddyone Tue 14-Mar-23 10:06:15

GSM
Can I understand this properly? Are you actually arguing that doctors do not deserve more pay? Their pay has been falling in value since 2008. I find it difficult to understand why anyone would not think highly trained doctors deserve to be paid commensurately to their skills. You say your son is a lawyer. My son is a lawyer too and most lawyers earn huge amounts, far more than any doctor. The exception are criminal barristers and the government have held their pay down too.

Freya5 Tue 14-Mar-23 09:59:30

FY1 on 2016 contract, salary 29,384
Year 2 34,012.
Just to put context..Figures from BMA.
Not saying they shouldn't have wage increase, of course they should , but not what they are demanding. No one goes into medicine with their eyes shut, or Nursing for that matter.

Germanshepherdsmum Tue 14-Mar-23 09:47:30

Perhaps rather than comparing doctors with bankers we should compare them with vets. Similar training, working all hours but employed in the private sector. Average first year salary £28,000.

foxie48 Tue 14-Mar-23 09:25:39

Bankers may not be paid by taxpayers/Govt but it was taxpayers/Govt who bailed the banks out when greed overtook common sense and the banking system almost collapsed! I'm not happy with doctors going on strike and lots of doctors aren't happy about it either. Although membership of the BMA has increased significantly of late, less than 70% of Junior doctors are members. However, how do doctors (nurses, ambulance workers etc) ensure they are paid properly? Yes of course they can "vote with their feet", plenty are doing that already but is it really cost effective to have well trained people leaving the NHS? Is it cost effective to use Agency staff to cover vacancies? People who can afford it can use private medical care but that's actually rather limited and although you will see a consultant, there won't be one in the hospital just in case you have a medical emergency, you'll get taken to the local NHS hospital! There's no argument that doctors pay has not kept up with inflation and they are paid less than they should be so it needs to be sorted. Comparing them with people in the private sector, is IMHO somewhat pointless as the NHS is basically the only employer doctors can work for if they want to remain in a clinical setting, this is not true of people in the private sector.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 14-Mar-23 09:23:23

Whilst I totally get that taxation does not fund Government spending

Successive Governments/MPs of all persuasions continue to trot out that they cannot afford things, which commentators/interviewers go along with.

MaizieD any ideas why this happens? I cannot believe that just a handful of GN members and a couple of low profile economists are the only people in the know

Germanshepherdsmum Tue 14-Mar-23 08:46:57

1923 growstuff. The German government was printing vast amounts of money. Hyperinflation.

growstuff Tue 14-Mar-23 08:37:31

Germanshepherdsmum

You know as well as I do that governments can’t simply print money willy nilly Maizie. I am reminded of Germany when one had to take a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread. I fear your knowledge of the banking industry is not as great as you think. I learn a great deal about it from my son who is a capital markets lawyer. And many of his clients are foreign banks.

Ho ho ho! (and it's not even Christmas!)

Germany was having to pay crippling reparations in foreign currency - big difference!

Germanshepherdsmum Tue 14-Mar-23 08:33:23

You know as well as I do that governments can’t simply print money willy nilly Maizie. I am reminded of Germany when one had to take a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread. I fear your knowledge of the banking industry is not as great as you think. I learn a great deal about it from my son who is a capital markets lawyer. And many of his clients are foreign banks.

MaizieD Tue 14-Mar-23 07:53:21

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

The government doesn’t pay the bankers growstuff.

How does that make any difference? It should be the government doesn't pay "directly" - it does control their pay.

If you had any understanding of macro-economics, you'd know how it works. As you don't, there's no basis for discussion.

Bankers use government created money, just like everyone else does. They may not pay them directly, but the original source of their money is the state. Their only exceptional source would be foreign earnings.

MaizieD Tue 14-Mar-23 07:48:07

Norah

GrannySomerset if all the current public sector pay demands were met, what would income tax need to rise to?

Great question.

Same question for childcare, who will pay, our taxes go up?

Income tax will not need to go up because taxation doesn't fund spending.

The government 'creates' the money it spends into the economy and taxes back what it has spent in order to avoid inflation. Before the money has been taxed back it has circulated in the economy and fuelled useful economic activity.

The more money the state spends/invests in the economy, the more it should get back in tax. This is not the same as putting up taxes.

growstuff Tue 14-Mar-23 03:40:02

Germanshepherdsmum

The government doesn’t pay the bankers growstuff.

How does that make any difference? It should be the government doesn't pay "directly" - it does control their pay.

If you had any understanding of macro-economics, you'd know how it works. As you don't, there's no basis for discussion.

growstuff Tue 14-Mar-23 03:36:49

Norah

growstuff Eh? So why doesn't increasing doctors' pay increase the amount of tax they pay?

All taxes, including doctors' tax totals will surely go up. Who has said that taxes won't increase?

So why are bankers' pay increases justified by claiming they pay more tax?

Some confused thinking here.

Wyllow3 Tue 14-Mar-23 00:00:04

B9exchange

A fully trained F1 gets £14 an hour, with a bit more for the extreme amount of overtime they do. I pay my cleaner £15 an hour!

The pay rate they are asking for is £19 an hour, not exactly unreasonable, given how much their pay has fallen in real terms. They are impossibly overstretched, and yet the Government is still capping the number of medical places at uni, so there is no hope of improvement in the future.

Me too. I was shocked to realise that was all they got. a young doctor on World at One said she couldn't afford to live properly on it especially with the hours she was working. Just totally disgraceful. No wonder they are going off to other countries. I cannot understand why anyone would object to £19 an hour for what they do.

B9exchange Mon 13-Mar-23 23:38:19

A fully trained F1 gets £14 an hour, with a bit more for the extreme amount of overtime they do. I pay my cleaner £15 an hour!

The pay rate they are asking for is £19 an hour, not exactly unreasonable, given how much their pay has fallen in real terms. They are impossibly overstretched, and yet the Government is still capping the number of medical places at uni, so there is no hope of improvement in the future.

maddyone Mon 13-Mar-23 23:34:51

And on a purely unemotional level, we need to pay doctors more in order to stop the brain drain.

maddyone Mon 13-Mar-23 23:33:34

So whatever your job, however long you trained for it and however skilled you are at brain surgery, or treating cancer, helping people with mental health issues to see light at the end of the tunnel etc it doesn’t make you valuable because the government pays you?
Really?

Wyllow3 Mon 13-Mar-23 23:16:59

Germanshepherdsmum

The government doesn’t pay the bankers growstuff.

Why is that relevant in a discussion about keeping enough doctors in the country and the levels of responsibility and rubbish pay after 5 years hard professional training?

Norah Mon 13-Mar-23 23:10:51

GrannySomerset if all the current public sector pay demands were met, what would income tax need to rise to?

Great question.

Same question for childcare, who will pay, our taxes go up?

GrannySomerset Mon 13-Mar-23 22:44:34

Two factors to add to this discussion: if all the current public sector pay demands were met, what would income tax need to rise to? And when comparing public and private sector salaries shouldn’t pension rights be taken into account? Final salary schemes hardly exist in the private sector now.

I agree that £14 per hour for a trainee doctor is derisory, but pay is more than an hourly rate. I want to see a fair solution to the current crisis but the two questions I ask above have to be taken into consideration too.

It is ironic that we poach doctors which poorer countries have trained and now Australia and New Zealand poach ours!

Germanshepherdsmum Mon 13-Mar-23 22:22:19

The government doesn’t pay the bankers growstuff.

SueDonim Mon 13-Mar-23 21:31:44

Fleurpepper

What is the terminology currently. It used to be

Houseman
Senior Houseman (SHO)
Registrar
Senior Registrar

Junior doctor. That’s it. It applies to everyone who is not a consultant, even if they’ve worked in the NHS for 30 years and have shedloads of experience.

Interestingly, my dd says staff use the old terms informally to denote hierarchy, as in ‘Go and ask X, she’s a senior.’

I think it was decided to refer to all non-consultants as juniors so that patients wouldn’t demand to see a senior registrar rather than a houseman.

growstuff Mon 13-Mar-23 21:04:13

Norah

growstuff Eh? So why doesn't increasing doctors' pay increase the amount of tax they pay?

All taxes, including doctors' tax totals will surely go up. Who has said that taxes won't increase?

Nobody said it, but I don't understand why bankers' increases can be justified but doctors' increases can't. The same argument applies to their salaries.

Fleurpepper Mon 13-Mar-23 20:58:17

maddyone

Oh yes, I knew but had forgotten that your DH was a dr Fleurpepper. So he trained at UCH, I’m assuming that is what is now called UCL, part of the University of London and has a variety of different courses, not just Medicine.

The Medical School was always called UCH. He lived in Halls, it was pretty dire and basic then!

Fleurpepper Mon 13-Mar-23 20:56:47

What is the terminology currently. It used to be

Houseman
Senior Houseman (SHO)
Registrar
Senior Registrar

Callistemon21 Mon 13-Mar-23 20:54:51

choughdancer

As lixy says, 'junior doctors' is a misleading term, and I think it should be removed or changed to reflect what they do. 'Junior' inevitably suggests 'lesser' or 'lower' in rank, as if they are not really quite proper doctors yet!

Yes, it really is a misnomer and fairly recent, I think.

It encompasses those who are qualified doctors, have foundation training and sometimes years of experience and include grades up to Consultant.
They include Senior House Officers and Registrars.