Junior Doctors strike

As for being a teacher like mum! Oh they laughed 'no way'!!!

Indeed, both our daughters, having seen their dad work such long hours, including 1 night in 3 or 4, on top of very long hours- for relatively low salary decided to go in Sales and Financial Services, and earn much much higher salaries and without the very long hours, nights and weekends. They have huge respect and admiration for their dad, but it was very clear they would never wish to do what he did.

My son, after achieving a first class degree in Jurisprudence from Oxford University, worked abroad for two years, and then worked a year at the Law Society, followed by a year at Bar School (he received a large grant/bursary to cover costs for this year) and then was paid (well) whilst he did pupillage working under and with an experienced barrister. He then started working as a junior barrister and initially worked at tribunals, progressing to more complex cases and longer cases and enjoying a substantial increase in his hourly rate each year. Not so my daughter, responsible for life and death decisions from year one, when working alone in the hospital at night.

I’m very proud of both of them, and also their brother, but I know who has consistently earned the higher amounts. And it’s not the doctor, despite her training and expertise.

Germanshepherdsmum

Was your daughter able to work entirely unsupervised as soon as she graduated with her doctorate maddyone?

My dd certainly did so. She is part of the so-called Covid Cohort who graduated early in 2020 in order to be deployed into the NHS. Within weeks she and just one other FY1 doctor were caring for approx 250 patients on 13hr overnight shifts in an acute hospital.

There would be a more senior doctor somewhere in the hospital but as s/he could not be in two places at once, these newly qualified doctors simply had to sink or swim in the system and hope no one came to harm.

The buck does stop with the Junior doctor indeed- working alone in the middle of the night exhausted! They can get sued for negligence just like any other doctor- and there is NO-ONE holding their hand in the middle of the night. Consultants make it very clear that they are NOT to be disturbed! With respect GSM, you have not a clue about the realities out there for Junior docs.

I have a daughter who is a Clinical Nurse Manager in a large NZ hospital. She left the NHS reluctantly due to poor pay and (especially) conditions. She works with large numbers of medical staff from the UK and the numbers are increasing since Covid. We need to ensure that we retain existing staff and in order to do that we need to pay them fairly. My cleaner gets £17.50 an hour and no-ones life depends on her doing her job well. We really can’t afford, as a country, not to give our NHS staff the pay and conditions they need in order to feel valued.

Figures from the General Medical Council show the number of medics obtaining a certificate that allows them to work abroad has risen by 25 per cent in a year.

Last year, there were 6,950 applications from UK doctors who are registered and licensed, up from 5,576 in 2021 – with around a quarter targeting Australia.

One of the country’s largest acute hospitals has just offered 200 jobs after a recent recruitment drive, amid growing concerns about an exodus of healthcare workers from the UK.

It comes after a poll of 4,500 junior doctors in England found one in three intended to work abroad next year, with Australia and New Zealand the most popular.
Telegraph Jan 2023

Oh yes, I knew but had forgotten that your DH was a dr Fleurpepper. So he trained at UCH, I’m assuming that is what is now called UCL, part of the University of London and has a variety of different courses, not just Medicine.

But the buck didn’t stop with her, rather like trainee lawyers who have passed all their exams and do a lot of work but are not fully qualified.

Thank you Fleurpepper. I’m proud of my daughter, but also of both my sons, who have also achieved well but are not doctors.

growstuff Eh? So why doesn't increasing doctors' pay increase the amount of tax they pay?

All taxes, including doctors' tax totals will surely go up. Who has said that taxes won't increase?

Germanshepherdsmum

Was your daughter able to work entirely unsupervised as soon as she graduated with her doctorate maddyone?

Often she was working alone, especially at night. Often she was the only doctor covering several wards, especially at night or weekends.
Of course Consultants hold the senior positions and therefore much of the responsibility. But yes, she worked with life/death situations, as all doctors do.

I have no idea why this came to mind.
"In Lady Windemere's Fan, Oscar Wilde had Lord Darlington quip that a cynic was 'a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. ' As with so much of what Wilde wrote or said, it's more than just a nice turn of phrase – it hits at the heart of the problems of society."

Incidentally, many, many barristers choose not to become KC. They may sometimes choose to become a judge, or not, or indeed both. And additionally, barristers earn a very great deal more than doctors, junior or otherwise.

Was your daughter able to work entirely unsupervised as soon as she graduated with her doctorate maddyone?

£1000 a year!

maddyone

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is paid just over £14 an hour for their first year of workplace training. So not a fully qualified doctor.

No!
A fist year doctor is a fully qualified doctor. After the five or six years at university a doctor graduates as a doctor. They then work F1 and F2 and are paid a salary because they are fully qualified doctors. They have not specialised at that point but they are fully qualified. During university they work in the hospitals too, it’s called clinical experience and they are still learning. My daughter spent three full years of her time at university engaged in clinical work in the hospitals, in a variety of hospitals all around London as she trained at UCL. Make no mistake about it, after six years at university, during which time she collected two degrees, one a BSc and the other a medical degree, in other words, a doctorate, she was fully qualified. Further work, study, and training is then acquired over years in order to become a Consultant.

Well done her. OH qualified at UCH in 1969. His first year as a Junior doctor, when I met him, he worked 140 hrs a week for exactly £1000. A different world altogether then!

growstuff How many jobs does their VAT and stamp duty generate? It's not the same as people spending relatively small amounts of money, which those receiving the money then spend on something else and so on. It's the circulation of money which keeps an economy going.

VAT and stamp duty do generate money into the economy. Spending is good, real agent earns and all other bits of the transaction, items with VAT earn money into the economy from manufacturer through seller.

My daughter has friends in a similar position - two junior doctors, both only children, who have both inherited a substantial amount of money recently. They've just bought a beautiful house, which they couldn't possibly have afforded without the inheritances.

Money changing hands, good for the economy and the buyers. Parents who can afford - doing a nice thing.

Absolutely foxie and very well said. That’s because you know the situation re doctors. Too many people think they know, but actually, they don’t.

Don’t you think the bankers and other well paid people also spend money in their communities growstuff? Buying food at Burrough Market, buying a coffee and a sandwich at lunchtime, a takeaway in the evening … ? You really have no idea. I know these people.

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is paid just over £14 an hour for their first year of workplace training. So not a fully qualified doctor.

No!
A fist year doctor is a fully qualified doctor. After the five or six years at university a doctor graduates as a doctor. They then work F1 and F2 and are paid a salary because they are fully qualified doctors. They have not specialised at that point but they are fully qualified. During university they work in the hospitals too, it’s called clinical experience and they are still learning. My daughter spent three full years of her time at university engaged in clinical work in the hospitals, in a variety of hospitals all around London as she trained at UCL. Make no mistake about it, after six years at university, during which time she collected two degrees, one a BSc and the other a medical degree, in other words, a doctorate, she was fully qualified. Further work, study, and training is then acquired over years in order to become a Consultant.

Lizbethann55

Everybody has suffered a loss in earnings over the past few years. But not everyone will be confident in knowing that regardless of what happens, they will definitely get a paypacket at the end of the month ( and not a bad one at that), paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, an exceptionally good maternity leave package and a really good pension at the end of their career.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that all the people going on strike at the moment belong to huge national organisations with the power of big unions behind them and all have the above privileges.
Does no one care for people who are paid an awful lot less who are struggling to keep their own businesses afloat and keep others in work. Or what about the self employed? Cleaners, carers , hairdressers , tradesmen etc. No work, no pay. Or nurses who work for hospices which are not NHS funded but rely mostly on charitable giving. Our local hospice is laying nurses off because they cannot afford them. And they are all going to that utterly dreadful , slave driving organisation known as the NHS.

I pay my cleaner and hairdresser significantly more than £14ph and when MIL was alive she paid her part time carer a great deal more than that and she was worth every penny. We had some building work done last year, we had to wait 6 months to be fitted in and I know his loyal team get paid well. tbh I don't resent paying people properly, what I won't do is let them avoid tax etc by paying cash.
Posters on here have talked about other "young professionals" being poorly paid, what is different is qualified doctors in training really only have one employer ie the NHS and the training to consultant level can only be completed by being an NHS doctor. Most "young professionals" can pick and choose their employer, that is most definitely not true of young doctors. Also, I doubt many young professionals have been sprayed with blood and other bodily fluids in the course of their work, had very little control over their next training job, had virtually no control over their working hours, nights, long days and weekends come as standard on the rota, have seen children die and parents collapse with grief, helped to deliver dead babies, been attacked by drunks, had to tell a mother their teenage son is dead.... honestly I could go on and whilst this is all happening, studying for the next exam, the next hoop to jump through! I'm extremely proud of my daughter being a doctor and supported her absolutely but I do think if she had taken a different route she'd have a more settled life, wouldn't look completely worn out and I wouldn't constantly worry about her driving home on the motorway after her fourth 13 hour shift on nights, when she is frequently the most senior doctor available unless she phones a consultant who is asleep at home! Anyone who equates this job with training as an accountant or solicitor.........???

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is no different to a junior barrister. The junior doctor isn’t a consultant and the junior barrister isn’t a KC. Both will earn more as they gain years of experience. Much more.

Maizie, my son’s banker friends spend eye watering sums in the domestic economy. Plenty of VAT and stamp duty revenue results.

Siope, my point is simply that in the private sector the government doesn’t foot the wage bill. In the public sector it does. It is not for me to find a solution.

How many jobs does their VAT and stamp duty generate?

It's not the same as people spending relatively small amounts of money, which those receiving the money then spend on something else and so on. It's the circulation of money which keeps an economy going.

Lizbethann55

Everybody has suffered a loss in earnings over the past few years. But not everyone will be confident in knowing that regardless of what happens, they will definitely get a paypacket at the end of the month ( and not a bad one at that), paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, an exceptionally good maternity leave package and a really good pension at the end of their career.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that all the people going on strike at the moment belong to huge national organisations with the power of big unions behind them and all have the above privileges.
Does no one care for people who are paid an awful lot less who are struggling to keep their own businesses afloat and keep others in work. Or what about the self employed? Cleaners, carers , hairdressers , tradesmen etc. No work, no pay. Or nurses who work for hospices which are not NHS funded but rely mostly on charitable giving. Our local hospice is laying nurses off because they cannot afford them. And they are all going to that utterly dreadful , slave driving organisation known as the NHS.

Actually, I'm quite shocked by the amount my hairdresser and window cleaner have increased their charges over the last six months.

Germanshepherdsmum

Lifting the bankers’ bonus cap didn’t cost the country a penny - quite the reverse, bankers pay a lot of tax.

Eh? So why doesn't increasing doctors' pay increase the amount of tax they pay?

Nevertheless, it's good to see that you understand what Maizie has been saying for years.

Everybody has suffered a loss in earnings over the past few years. But not everyone will be confident in knowing that regardless of what happens, they will definitely get a paypacket at the end of the month ( and not a bad one at that), paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, an exceptionally good maternity leave package and a really good pension at the end of their career.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that all the people going on strike at the moment belong to huge national organisations with the power of big unions behind them and all have the above privileges.
Does no one care for people who are paid an awful lot less who are struggling to keep their own businesses afloat and keep others in work. Or what about the self employed? Cleaners, carers , hairdressers , tradesmen etc. No work, no pay. Or nurses who work for hospices which are not NHS funded but rely mostly on charitable giving. Our local hospice is laying nurses off because they cannot afford them. And they are all going to that utterly dreadful , slave driving organisation known as the NHS.