Polarisation of society

Starmer did that himself divide the Labour Party karma Its left wing people who Starmer and Evans expelled and his stance on the wrong tyre of Jew. Going back on his pledges not knowing what he stands for lying and dull and duller

It is obviously in the interest of the right wing proprietors of most of the UK newspapers to divide the Labour Party into Starmer and anti Starmer camps..

Well done The Tmes, Telegraph, Daily Mail, The Sun, The Daily Express and the rest of that lot.

Ilovecheese

Thing is though, Starmer is not just becoming less popular with left wing voters but Labours lead over the Conservatives is decreasing and he is still less trusted than Rishi Sunak in the polls.
He is not inspiring anyone, and now he has even lost the moral high ground after those dodgy tweets attacking Sunak.
There should be no problem for Labour at the next election with such a Government as we have at the moment, but with Starmer in charge there is a problem.

Labour have dropped 2% in the latest polls I lovecheese, which is hardly catastrophic, at 49%.
www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-opinion-polls
Honestly, half this doom and gloom is from those in the party who want him out, it’s not the reality for ordinary voters.

Thing is though, Starmer is not just becoming less popular with left wing voters but Labours lead over the Conservatives is decreasing and he is still less trusted than Rishi Sunak in the polls.
He is not inspiring anyone, and now he has even lost the moral high ground after those dodgy tweets attacking Sunak.
There should be no problem for Labour at the next election with such a Government as we have at the moment, but with Starmer in charge there is a problem.

Sorry, I thought I had quoted. My last post in reply to Glorianny Tue 11-Apr-23 11:10:47

All I see are more dubious "facts" and very little knowledge.

Who are the 'we' who warned against Boris. I remember a very general conversation coming from all sides. Even some Conservatives could see the problems. I, and many others who don't hold extreme views, certainly didn't need you to tell us what he is like or what he wanted to do to the country. The twisted views of the extremes are not something I feel the need to be tutored in.

DaisyAnne

mumof2boys

Anyone else suspicious of the volume and ramp up in recent days of Anti Kier Starmer rhetoric that is appearing at the moment in the papers and across all social media.

Smells of a coordinated campaign.

I imagine it is just that. On here it's mainly from the hard left. They don't really want to be in government do they? Either that or they cannot get those hard left brains around how elections are won. It is not by appealing to the extremes.

Totally agree with varian (Wed 05-Apr-23 12:24:38) PR cannot, but sadly will not, come soon enough.

Oh DaisyAnne we can "get our hard left brains about how elections are won". We also know that there are politicians who lie and cheat to achieve power. We look at politician's records and question their commitment. We did it with Boris and we warned people. Now we see the same tactics with Starmer and we are warning again. Perhaps those warnings will be disregarded again. What sort of a government will result is anyone's guess. But there is no commitment from Starmer to create a better society and Toty-lite won't change anything. I'd liken it to when the coalition government was in power. It just paved the way for the chaos we are in now. And strangely enough some of us "won't get fooled again"

mumof2boys

Anyone else suspicious of the volume and ramp up in recent days of Anti Kier Starmer rhetoric that is appearing at the moment in the papers and across all social media.

Smells of a coordinated campaign.

I imagine it is just that. On here it's mainly from the hard left. They don't really want to be in government do they? Either that or they cannot get those hard left brains around how elections are won. It is not by appealing to the extremes.

Totally agree with varian (Wed 05-Apr-23 12:24:38) PR cannot, but sadly will not, come soon enough.

Fleurpepper

M0nica

Arrogance has nothing ot do with how much you or others know. It is a question of treating everyone, whether they agree with you or not as your equals in respect and not look down on them because you do not consider them as clever as you or consider their views to be beneath your contempt.

Monica, views and opinions are one thing- but facts are another.

If someone says the earth is flat, I won't accept the comment as 'equal'.

*Fleurpepper, bizarrely that question "Is the Earth Flat?", has been asked online by 11 million Brazilians recently ... can't trust a lot of what the media say, so that one is gaining traction!

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon here's one of the facts I posted about Starmer. I don't think I have drawn or construed any conclusions. I've left you to come to your own.
3. He has forced left wing Jews to leave the party. This letter details the worries some Jews have about his actions policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism-
I could draw all sorts of conclusions from that fact but I haven't.

You could draw all sorts of conclusions from that information, of course, and everybody will. It’s just that the conclusions will all be different based on what else people know, how they interpret the implementation of the recommendations of the review, and their pre existing beliefs. Not everybody feels the same way about the rights of Jews, Palestinians or in fact the wider Middle East political questions, do they? Not all Jews feel the same way either. In addition, not everybody thinks that this is a central issue for the UK Labour Party, so they don’t care much about that element of the debate. It’s a circuitous discussion.

I’ve asked before, and the question I still have is whether this thread is the place for these issues to be discussed, why don’t people start specific thread about issues they want to discuss rather than hijack other threads? It was a seemingly random post on this thread that started this discussion, which has strayed a long way now from the original post.

You accused me of "indoctrinating" people. But as you say everyone can make their own minds up, so no indoctrination.

If you don't like the way a thread is developing there is one sure way to stop it. Stop replying to posts.

Here here Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon here's one of the facts I posted about Starmer. I don't think I have drawn or construed any conclusions. I've left you to come to your own.
3. He has forced left wing Jews to leave the party. This letter details the worries some Jews have about his actions policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism-
I could draw all sorts of conclusions from that fact but I haven't.

You could draw all sorts of conclusions from that information, of course, and everybody will. It’s just that the conclusions will all be different based on what else people know, how they interpret the implementation of the recommendations of the review, and their pre existing beliefs. Not everybody feels the same way about the rights of Jews, Palestinians or in fact the wider Middle East political questions, do they? Not all Jews feel the same way either. In addition, not everybody thinks that this is a central issue for the UK Labour Party, so they don’t care much about that element of the debate. It’s a circuitous discussion.

I’ve asked before, and the question I still have is whether this thread is the place for these issues to be discussed, why don’t people start specific thread about issues they want to discuss rather than hijack other threads? It was a seemingly random post on this thread that started this discussion, which has strayed a long way now from the original post.

Casdon here's one of the facts I posted about Starmer. I don't think I have drawn or construed any conclusions. I've left you to come to your own.
3. He has forced left wing Jews to leave the party. This letter details the worries some Jews have about his actions policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism-
I could draw all sorts of conclusions from that fact but I haven't.

Glorianny

Sorry Casdon facts are facts. Usually for mine I check more than 1 source What you construe from those facts may be different. Someone may try to present the facts in a way which influences your thinking.
But presenting those facts is not indoctrination

I agree that facts are facts, particularly when gathered from a number of sources with different leanings/funding/motivation, but we all construe from them different conclusions don’t we? Indoctrination comes from portraying selected facts in a specific light to persuade other people that your interpretation of those, often multiple and conflicting pieces of information is the only logical way of interpreting them.

Sorry Casdon facts are facts. Usually for mine I check more than 1 source What you construe from those facts may be different. Someone may try to present the facts in a way which influences your thinking.
But presenting those facts is not indoctrination

I didn’t say the left were doing something that mainstream media wasn’t Glorianny, but that all side/sources do it?
We all use sources to attempt to prove our point, none of them are 100% reliable because they come from a source which isn’t.

Casdon

Glorianny

M0nica

Grany whether the King's visit to York will be in the papers will depend on whether the paper thinks the visit will interest its readers. Newspapers have to publish material that interests potential readers, otherwise they will not buy it.

In the UK we have a range of newspapers that cover the full range of political opinion from The Guardian and i on the left to the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail on the right and a series of sensationalist papers like The Sun and star.

it is always the fond belief of those on the left that everyone would think like them, if only they were properly indoctrinated and only allowed to see news sources that those on the left approved of.

You do know that the victory of Tony Blair was attributed by many to the Sun newspaper changing sides and backing him , don't you? Their headline"It's the Sun wot won it" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_The_Sun_Wot_Won_It#:~:text=The%20phrase%20was%20used%20again,
No one on the left wants to indoctrinate anybody, but recognising the power of the media and its undoubtedly biased views is important. Even those on the right should realise that.

The left are as guilty of trying to indoctrinate as any other section of society Glorianny. You only need to read this thread to see that!

If you can post anything I have said that is pure propaganda please do so Casdon. I don't see posting truths that are not in the mainstream media as "indoctrination". Sadly some people will say things which they are unable to substantiate, and will then blame others, because truths they have no wish to acknowledge, are revealed to them. But that isn't indoctrination. It is simply presenting an argument which others are quite free to contest if they have evidence that proves me wrong.

It is a sad state of affairs when someone on the left can't post their views without being accused of indoctrination whilst the mainstream media consistently promotes right wing ideas without censure.

Talking about the biased views of media important to know appreciate, anyone can have right left or centre views and express them her.

Glorianny

M0nica

Grany whether the King's visit to York will be in the papers will depend on whether the paper thinks the visit will interest its readers. Newspapers have to publish material that interests potential readers, otherwise they will not buy it.

In the UK we have a range of newspapers that cover the full range of political opinion from The Guardian and i on the left to the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail on the right and a series of sensationalist papers like The Sun and star.

it is always the fond belief of those on the left that everyone would think like them, if only they were properly indoctrinated and only allowed to see news sources that those on the left approved of.

You do know that the victory of Tony Blair was attributed by many to the Sun newspaper changing sides and backing him , don't you? Their headline"It's the Sun wot won it" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_The_Sun_Wot_Won_It#:~:text=The%20phrase%20was%20used%20again,
No one on the left wants to indoctrinate anybody, but recognising the power of the media and its undoubtedly biased views is important. Even those on the right should realise that.

The left are as guilty of trying to indoctrinate as any other section of society Glorianny. You only need to read this thread to see that!

M0nica

Grany whether the King's visit to York will be in the papers will depend on whether the paper thinks the visit will interest its readers. Newspapers have to publish material that interests potential readers, otherwise they will not buy it.

In the UK we have a range of newspapers that cover the full range of political opinion from The Guardian and i on the left to the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail on the right and a series of sensationalist papers like The Sun and star.

it is always the fond belief of those on the left that everyone would think like them, if only they were properly indoctrinated and only allowed to see news sources that those on the left approved of.

You do know that the victory of Tony Blair was attributed by many to the Sun newspaper changing sides and backing him , don't you? Their headline"It's the Sun wot won it" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_The_Sun_Wot_Won_It#:~:text=The%20phrase%20was%20used%20again,
No one on the left wants to indoctrinate anybody, but recognising the power of the media and its undoubtedly biased views is important. Even those on the right should realise that.

How the British royal family hides its wealth from public scrutiny
Ahead of the coronation of King Charles III, the Guardian’s Cost of the crown series exposes the entrenched secrecy around the royal family’s money and wealth

John Cleese in an interview a while back said he is disappointment that both proportional representation and the second phase of the Leveson inquiry into press standards had been “kicked out by rightwing governments”, adding: “I just thought to myself: ‘Right I’ll just give up and try somewhere else.’”

Saying his “particular beef” was with newspapers, Cleese showed Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis figures from an EU report that claimed the UK had the lowest level of trust in the printed media. That's not surprising.

I wonder if York visit by royals covered of demonstration

Grany whether the King's visit to York will be in the papers will depend on whether the paper thinks the visit will interest its readers. Newspapers have to publish material that interests potential readers, otherwise they will not buy it.

In the UK we have a range of newspapers that cover the full range of political opinion from The Guardian and i on the left to the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail on the right and a series of sensationalist papers like The Sun and star.

it is always the fond belief of those on the left that everyone would think like them, if only they were properly indoctrinated and only allowed to see news sources that those on the left approved of.

Yes I think it great that Obama such a high profile person has spoken out about Murdock and the polarisation of society. Not enough has been said about the press and in our country its mostly propaganda a few billionaires owning the newspapers, don't pay tax here, thats the way they want it to stay. What happened to the press standards enquiry and where is good journalism? Polarisation happens when newspapers and media don't represent the people nor speak truth to power. Do the press have a mainly one sided view of monarchy sycophantic coverage no dissenting views same with politics. There is a demonstration at York today of Charles visit wonder if it will be covered in media.

From Guardian

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2023/apr/05/revealed-royals-took-more-than-1bn-income-from-controversial-estates-king-charles-queen-duchies-cornwall-lancaster