'woman' jailed for multiple abuse offences

Smileless2012

^Personal choice doesn't mean you can dictate to others^ exactly Glorianny* but try saying that to trans activists, and anyone else who believes that because a man chooses to be a 'woman', he can access women's safe spaces.

Absolutely, Smileless. The dictating to others goes way beyond personal choice, too. It's all about 'validation' of their fantasy (or fetish). Im some cases it seems to be about power, too - the very act of knowing that women are uncomfortable is a turn-on. I'm thinking here about the men who keep beards and wear tight leggings so their make sex is obvious, then push into women's spaces.

Galaxy, I understand and respect your point of view, as you know.

Personal choice doesn't mean you can dictate to others exactly Glorianny* but try saying that to trans activists, and anyone else who believes that because a man chooses to be a 'woman', he can access women's safe spaces.

Glorianny - choosing nit to use communal changing rooms because you don’t like them is so far removed from the discussion about women’s right to safe spaces as to be irrelevant

Doodledog I never used the communal changing rooms once common in shops because I didn't like them. I didn't however think I had the right to have them closed down, because others seemed quite happy to undress in them.
Personal choice doesn't mean you can dictate to others..

I think thats why we are where we are, we pretended that men can become women and they cant. As far as I can see there is no evidence that transwomen have any different offending pattern than men (because they are men). I am also wary about making access to womens spaces conditional on a surgery which has life long medical consequences, and which the long term follow up on benefits and consequences seem to be sorely lacking.

Glorianny

The law is quite clear no woman can be forced to share a space with a transwoman or a service. If those who are born women would not use it transwomen can be banned.
I suppose women in prison have little choice, but as I said it is an evolving process.

But we all know that's not true, Glorianny. Plenty of women don't use changing rooms in M&S - do you really think that a manager would make them single sex if I asked? What about the Monsoon prom dress debacle? Lots of women objected but the TRA got his way. It happens all the time. Parents object to girls having to share tents with boys at Guide camp, but the girls either don't go or put up with it. Girls at school risk urine infections rather than use unisex loos (and goodness knows how they deal with periods), and women in rape centres are told to 'reframe their trauma'.

All the same, I don't think this is fair, *Galaxy:
I know this is a surprise but for women who have been raped and abused how serious mens feelings are is not a priority. Of course it's not a priority for women who have been raped, and it's not a priority for me either, (or a surprise that rape victims feel that way). The woman's feelings come first every time.

But someone with a vagina (even a constructed one) is just not safe around incarcerated men, and it would be an additional punishment to put them in there. Having said that, I have no idea of how many surgically transitioned transwomen commit sex offences, particularly as they will have taken female hormones. I'd be surprised if it's very many. I don't think there is an answer that would be fair to everyone, but to me there is a difference between someone saying he's a woman and someone who has taken hormones and had surgery to try to make it so.

The law is quite clear no woman can be forced to share a space with a transwoman or a service. If those who are born women would not use it transwomen can be banned.
I suppose women in prison have little choice, but as I said it is an evolving process.

I am afraid that it's still putting the feelings of men ahead of the needs of women. Women need spaces without men, if you widen the discussion to refuges for example, those women need a space without men whatever they may have done to their body. Women shouldnt be forced to rearrange their boundaries because of the feelings of men. I know this is a surprise but for women who have been raped and abused how serious mens feelings are is not a priority.

A male who has had a neovagina constructed would be at risk in a male prison, but then again so are 'pretty' (for want of a better word) young male offenders. There probably needs to be more thought given to where to incarcerate vulnerable offenders with more small segregated units within the prison estate. The female estate cannot be used as a shield for vulnerable males. In the same way a female who has had a phalloplasty can't be housed with males, but would it be fair to house them with females?

No, you’re right Galaxy that a man with his genitalia removed is still a man (and I’m sure you’re quite sane) but I agree with Doodledog that anyone who does this is very serious about living as a woman, and in any case, could hardly rape a woman. Removal of genitals is the only way I would ever be prepared to share a woman’s space with a trans woman ie a hospital ward, a changing room. A prison will hopefully never be a problem for me as I have no intention of ever ending up in prison.

I would fear for someone who has women’s genitals in a male prison. I also think that someone who goes through a surgical procedure to ‘transition’ is very obviously serious about it. No, they are not female, but they clearly believe they are, and are not using ‘feelings’ as an excuse to gain access to vulnerable women.

No and I think I am quite sane. A man with his genitals removed is just that, he does not become a woman when that happens. No men in any womens spaces whatever they have done to their body.

Elegran

Has "Zara Jade" applied to officially change her gender status to "woman" or is she self-identifying as a woman at the moment without formal paperwork for the transition? Has she taken any other steps to change her gender? That should affect whether "she" goes to a male or female prison. The choice of a female partner seems to show that "her" underlying sexual and hormonal makeup is still basically male. The use of domestic violence will be taken into account, too.

The only change that would qualify this person to serve his sentence in a female prison would be the removal of his male genitalia. In my opinion, and the opinion of any other sane person I hope.

I don’t think anyone has said it has anything to do with ‘ordinary’ transpeople, have they? Apart from VS not grasping that understanding that links will be made is quite different from making those links oneself, that is.

This is about offenders claiming to be trans in order to access women, or having accessed them as males deciding to claim trans status to get into women’s jails. There is nothing ‘ordinary’ about that, which is the point.

The usual outcry from the usual subject.
Quite what this has to do with ordinary transpeople I don't know.
It has nothing to do with them.
However, if the TIM who are not ordinary refrained from attracting negative publicity to transpeople by their unacceptable actions, discussions like this would not be taking place.

It has as much relevance to them as imprisoned paedophiles do to most men.
Well yes, except that TIM imprisoned for sexual attacks on females are always male. Pædophiles aren’t necessarily male.

Galaxy

Well in terms of how we plan provision the behaviour of 'bad' people has an impact on all of us. It's why we have safeguarding.

That's true and the argument could be made that if proper safeguarding facilities were still in place then all sex offenders would receive some form of supervision/counselling after release from prison. This used to be provided by social workers and/or the probation service. All gone now of course.

Well in terms of how we plan provision the behaviour of 'bad' people has an impact on all of us. It's why we have safeguarding.

The usual outcry from the usual subjects. There is no doubt that the prison service like much else in the judiciary struggles to keep up with recent developments. It perhaps regrettable but things never change over night.
For the record there was a spate of transwomen placed in male prisons committing suicide. To deal with it judges suggested transwomen should be placed in women's prisons, when there were reports of violence special trans blocks were introduced. Some male prisoners have transitioned in the hope of being placed in women's prisons. There is no doubt that just like prisoners convicted of sex crimes such people need proper provision. Quite what this has to do with ordinary transpeople I don't know. It has as much relevance to them as imprisoned paedophiles do to most men.

It is perfectly possible to agree that people should be free to "be themselves" while still pointing that if those selves engage in rape and violence against women fuelled by male hormones and using male bodies then they should be treated as men, whatever their own perception of themselves may be. If they went around peeing on lamposts and fire-hydrants and pooping on the pavement because they self-identified as poodles, they would still be treated as humans when they were charged with committing a nuisance.

There is light on the horizon where sentencing is concerned.
" . . . new rules banning some transgender women from female prisons in England and Wales came into force last month.
Justice Secretary Dominic Raab initially announced the measures in October affecting trans women who have male genitalia or who had committed sexual offences.
He confirmed in February that he had also updated the policy to include transgender women convicted of violent offences.

It is when someone commits a crime as a man while claiming to be a woman that the loophole in the legislation lets in the light.
Not helped by their enablers who keep chatting their shit "but they need to be their authentic selves; it's soooo depressing when you don't support them", whilst studiously ignoring the mounting number of rapists and paedophiles who are using the trans movement to circumvent the safety of women.

But he has people beating him around the ears with the news that being a man or a woman is all about feeling that you are one thing or the other, not about having the relevant set of plumbing! And they have made it a matter for legislation that what distinguishes men from women is purely what the individual believes him/herself to be.

It is when someone commits a crime as a man while claiming to be a woman that the loophole in the legislation lets in the light.

LiverLover

You don't really need a degree in biology to know that men have a dick and women don't.

Delicate phrasing there

Yes - he's a married man with a son and a daughter. He has no excuse for not knowing the difference between the male and female bodies.

You don't really need a degree in biology to know that men have a dick and women don't.

Witzend

IMO a lot of people are clueless about biology, and so don’t understand the facts of biological sex. Perhaps especially men, and it would seem that Keir Starmer is one of them. My dh went to a highly academic boys’ school where he never studied biology - he says it was considered a ‘girls’ subject’ so it was largely those boys who were planning on a career in medicine who took it at O and A level.

Odd really isn't it - when you look at a list of the most famous biologists - that it's considered a "girls' subject"?!

LiverLover

No wonder there's such confusion about gender. Keir Starmer has reassured us that 99.99% of women don't have a penis. Ergo 01% must have.

^Sir Keir said 99.9% of women "of course haven't got a penis" as he was asked about his stance on whether a person with a penis can be a woman.^

IMO a lot of people are clueless about biology, and so don’t understand the facts of biological sex. Perhaps especially men, and it would seem that Keir Starmer is one of them. My dh went to a highly academic boys’ school where he never studied biology - he says it was considered a ‘girls’ subject’ so it was largely those boys who were planning on a career in medicine who took it at O and A level.

I can’t help wondering whether a good many otherwise very well educated men are similar.