Junior doctors strike

Germany and France fund their healthcare partly through State provision and partly insurance based. I think Australia also. Probably loads more countries. Just because we have a fully underfunded on the bone State system in England doesn’t mean that we have to stay with this. Other countries do it better it would seem from the comments of mothers whose children have left.

If most of the 18% of junior doctors who currently locum were in permanent training contracts and we retained the services of those who move abroad, the NHS wouldn't need the services of locums to keep the NHS afloat. Pay rates would drop to properly reflects the lack of pension provision etc and would be more affordable. I am fairly confident that the trend identified in the extract below has increased.
www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/what-our-data-tells-us-about-locum-doctors_pdf-74371150.pdf
"Our data shows that a growing proportion of doctors are choosing to undertake
work as locums. From 2013 to 2017, there was an increase of almost 12,000
licensed doctors working as locums. This equates to nearly 1 in 5 of all licensed
doctors"

ronib

Growstuff the way the Nhs is funded seems very dependent on the government of the day and economic circumstances. The Nhs is presumably costed with inflation to be halved by the end of the year? This is central control. From what I understand, countries with an insurance element as well as State funds seem to be more relaxed in their medical systems.

Sorry, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about, ronib. Your 'explanation' (if that's what this post is meant to be) is incomprehensible.

ronib

DaisyAnne if every junior doctor is to be paid at locum rates as opposed to 18 percent of doctors currently, surely this is the end of the NHS?

Why would you think that? What are the facts in this argument? It may be true; it may not be, but it is currently just a blatantly biased opinion.

Who has asked for all junior doctors to be paid the same as locum rates? With positions filled by doctors employed by the NHS, the locum rate would be lower.

The "going rate" for doctors is an international one. The "going rate" is the argument the far-right use for the extortionate rate of pay for many of their supporters' jobs. We need to staff the NHS at the "going rate", with conditions equivalent to those who compete for our doctors if we are to have a sustainable Health Service.

I do not know what that rate is, and I would guess neither do you. You seem to be intent on joining the extremists in destroying the NHS however. I will apologise if that is not what you intend, but it would really help if you clarified what your intention is.

Growstuff the way the Nhs is funded seems very dependent on the government of the day and economic circumstances. The Nhs is presumably costed with inflation to be halved by the end of the year? This is central control. From what I understand, countries with an insurance element as well as State funds seem to be more relaxed in their medical systems.

I doubt if you've actually thought it through ronib.

How would a different funding model change how much doctors are paid or their workload?

ronib

Maybe the funding model needs to change also foxie48 to part state funded and part insurance model in line with Australia?

Please explain exactly how that would alleviate the situation.

Maybe the funding model needs to change also foxie48 to part state funded and part insurance model in line with Australia?

ronib

Applying simple logic, foxie48 are you suggesting that all junior doctors should be paid at the going rate for locums in order to retain their services?

Rather than applying what you think is "simple logic" you might try reading my reply more carefully.
"If junior doctors are leaving or not progressing onto further training, either or both of the following needs to change: rate of pay/conditions of service."

DaisyAnne if every junior doctor is to be paid at locum rates as opposed to 18 percent of doctors currently, surely this is the end of the NHS?

ronib

foxie48 actually not all armed forces are provided with accommodation. If a family wants to stay in a particular area and not move every 3 years or so then different rules apply. Ditto to school fees. Young officers do need to be careful with spending and I think that pay bands are comparable to junior doctors. Also there’s the added dimension of death on the battlefield.

No I can’t explain why roughly 18 percent of doctors are employed as locums in the Nhs at greatly inflated rates.No I don’t know why the managers of the Nhs manage rotas and staff in the way they do. I would much prefer the more relaxed Australian experience for both doctors and patients but …..

What do your think our doctors are worth ronib. Or do you just want to see the destruction of the NHS?

ronib

Iam64 no of course I didn’t need my delivery driver to explain how tough life is with 3 children. I thought though that Gransnetters were so preoccupied with the concerns of their own children that perhaps they had forgotten how the rest of the world lived!

I suggest you look at the news and politics threads, where you’ll see the majority of posters are well aware and furious about the struggles faced by everyone, other than the very wealthy, as a result of the cost of living crisis.
12 years of incompetent, uncaring Tory mismanagement of the country is behind these strikes and the devastation of the nhs and other public services

Applying simple logic, foxie48 are you suggesting that all junior doctors should be paid at the going rate for locums in order to retain their services?

ronib I can explain why 18% of junior doctors are working as locums at greatly inflated rates. They can earn a great deal more, work less, have greater autonomy over their working lives and live where they want. The only mystery is why more don't do it. What they give up is career progression. Why does that matter? Well, because junior doctors are effectively both in training as well as training those who are junior to them, the NHS needs junior doctors to be properly contracted and heading towards becoming consultants, because it is the consultants who are the leading trainers. It's really not rocket science. I, of course, have skin in the game but surely it's not difficult to see that demoralised junior doctors who feel they are underpaid and under valued is putting the NHS under extra pressure. It's a very simple equation, basically the law of supply and demand. If junior doctors are leaving or not progressing onto further training, either or both of the following needs to change: rate of pay/conditions of service. This is what operates in the private world of lawyers, bankers, recruitment etc and the bottom line is it also is in operation in our public services including the NHS.

Unfortunately many people fail to understand that the lack of proper cost of living rises since 2008 has devalued the pay of all doctors enormously. Coupled with the abuse and lack of respect they deal with from some patients, not to mention the hounding they get from the media, doctors are feeling undervalued and are suffering from low morale. Given the circumstances I’m not surprised. Sometimes my daughter sends me copies of things doctors have said on their forums and I know that they are feeling very unhappy and devalued at this time after such prolonged pay restraint.

We paid for our daughter’s accommodation all the time she was a medical student in London. It was expensive.

Quite right but the armed forces are provided with accommodation

No, not always.
And, of course, it is not free, contrary to what many people may think.

foxie48 actually not all armed forces are provided with accommodation. If a family wants to stay in a particular area and not move every 3 years or so then different rules apply. Ditto to school fees. Young officers do need to be careful with spending and I think that pay bands are comparable to junior doctors. Also there’s the added dimension of death on the battlefield.

No I can’t explain why roughly 18 percent of doctors are employed as locums in the Nhs at greatly inflated rates.No I don’t know why the managers of the Nhs manage rotas and staff in the way they do. I would much prefer the more relaxed Australian experience for both doctors and patients but …..

ronib

maddyone we seem doomed to cross swords. I am concerned for the families who are struggling financially without any certainty of large income improvements once specialist training is completed. I didn’t compare Ocado delivery drivers to doctors but both are treated with the respect they deserve.

Also armed forces personnel are used to travelling and working in to quite dangerous locations and are moved frequently. It’s not just doctors who face rotation in training!

Quite right but the armed forces are provided with accommodation, junior doctors are not. The armed forces do not pay their own moving costs, junior doctors do. The children of armed service people have priority for school places, SPP, the option of help with assisted fees, junior doctors do not. Daughter actually considered training via the army, she's a very fit outdoor type. She would have received a wage and priority training. The armed forces really look after their medics but she decided it wasn't for her. I also care about people who are struggling on poor pay and I'd like to think that the NHS is there to help them when they are sick. Statistically it's the poorest in our society that uses the NHS most. I'm just not sure that poor pay and working conditions for doctors helps the most vulnerable in our society in any way at all. Perhaps you could explain.

Iam64 no of course I didn’t need my delivery driver to explain how tough life is with 3 children. I thought though that Gransnetters were so preoccupied with the concerns of their own children that perhaps they had forgotten how the rest of the world lived!

maddyone we seem doomed to cross swords. I am concerned for the families who are struggling financially without any certainty of large income improvements once specialist training is completed. I didn’t compare Ocado delivery drivers to doctors but both are treated with the respect they deserve.

Also armed forces personnel are used to travelling and working in to quite dangerous locations and are moved frequently. It’s not just doctors who face rotation in training!

Maddyone - there’s no accounting for those with fixed ideas who can’t or won’t face the reality

As for struggling workers, did you need this delivery driver to explain how tough life is for people ronib?

And frankly, comparing a doctor to a delivery person is ludicrous. There’s no comparison. Everyone has bigger energy bills, including doctors!

I can’t understand why posters on Gransnet fail to understand how much the pay of doctors has devalued over the last twelve to fourteen years, nor how much they have been devalued by both the government and many patients. Morale is at rock bottom in the profession and this is leading to the current problems.