Junior doctors strike

Boris Johnson, 2019

"Boris Johnson could not have been clearer in his first speech as prime minister about his intention to finally come up with a solution to one of the great policy failures of the last 20 years.

“My job is to protect you or your parents or grandparents from the fear of having to sell your home to pay for the costs of care,” he said.

“And so I am announcing now – on the steps of Downing Street – that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all, and with a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/01/promising-to-fix-social-care-could-cost-boris-johnson-dearly

That says it all, foxie48.

Gosh, so are the MPs, House rose on 30 March 2023and sits again on 17 April 2023. That's well over two weeks so I expect they are all busy in their constituencies (or perhaps not).
Ian Byrne twittered Today a doctor on the picket line said to me: “MPs have had a 42.7% increase since 2008, Junior Doctors have had a 25% decrease since 2010. So let’s not have MPs saying that pay restoration for doctors is unaffordable. We have families to feed as well.”

It's OK for MPs to have lucrative second jobs which they do instead of their constituency work but not OK for doctors to work privately outside their contracted hours and it's perfectly acceptable to provide subsidised meals on site for MPs but not for hospital doctors.

Absolutely this. When this is inferred by those who were happy with Johnson, king of the freeloaders, it is beyond irony.

ronib

Meanwhile MSM reports that Dr Robert Laurenson , co leader of the BMA is on one week’s holiday. Also that the BMA has asked ACAS to get involved with the government yet to agree.

As is Steve Baker, I believe. That wasn't reported was it?

Callistemon21

Doodledog

I really don't want to get into the 'who is worth more?' thing. I will, however, say that a 50 year old plumber will not, on average, earn more than a 5 year old doctor, particularly a specialist, but I don't see that it's relevant to this discussion.

It's not.

Especially as we were discussing the pay of Junior doctors and not senior practitioners or consultants.

Doodledog

I really don't want to get into the 'who is worth more?' thing. I will, however, say that a 50 year old plumber will not, on average, earn more than a 5 year old doctor, particularly a specialist, but I don't see that it's relevant to this discussion.

It's not.

Obviously I meant a 50 year old doctor

I really don't want to get into the 'who is worth more?' thing. I will, however, say that a 50 year old plumber will not, on average, earn more than a 5 year old doctor, particularly a specialist, but I don't see that it's relevant to this discussion.

Callistemon21

^This is nothing to do with the doctors' strikes. A plumber's charges are not his 'pay'. He will be charging for offtakes, NI, tax, wear and tear of equipment, transport, maybe premises, an accountant, insurance and goodness knows what else before he or she gets anything for him or herself. Doctors, in common with most other employees, are paid after their employers have factored all of that in^

No, I have no idea why Glorianny introduced the subject and I'll admit I was wrong to engage with her.
It was a ridiculous comparison.

I didn't actually introduce the subject if you care to check back Calistemon21 but I realise in pointing out the realities of the training necessary to set up as a plumber or gas fitter I have upset your false preconceptions.
However if you want another comparison. There is a desperate shortage of plumbers and gas fitters and little opportunity for apprenticeships. In order to deal with this, short courses leading to city and guilds and NVQ qualifications were introduced. I wonder if we reach the desperate doctor shortage we are heading for will there will be a way introduced to qualify in medicine without the years at Uni?
Doodledog I did acknowledge that the £80 quoted as charged for an hour servicing a boiler (not by me) would need to have the plumber's costs deducted from it. They still come out with more than Junior doctors.

Thank you, very kind.

I'm not in the mood for it today.

You could follow the link upthread.

But I wouldn't advise it.

I did it so you don't have to.

I defy anybody to read that ridiculous and slanted Daily Mail article and tell me that its all fine and they only buy it for the crosswords and the weekend magazine

Its disgusting

volver

I haven't seen the article because we only buy the Daily Mail for the TV guide.

Is it unpleasant?

Thanks.

This is nothing to do with the doctors' strikes. A plumber's charges are not his 'pay'. He will be charging for offtakes, NI, tax, wear and tear of equipment, transport, maybe premises, an accountant, insurance and goodness knows what else before he or she gets anything for him or herself. Doctors, in common with most other employees, are paid after their employers have factored all of that in

No, I have no idea why Glorianny introduced the subject and I'll admit I was wrong to engage with her.
It was a ridiculous comparison.

Thank you Dickens.

Where do we start, though? If someone were setting up British society now, I'm sure they wouldn't do it as it is now. Like so often happens when something's been going on for ages it has stopped making sense. It's all but impossible to dismantle something as complicated as this without some sort of ground zero moment (or decade, usually) and that brings with it casualties and hardship, and can leave the door open to destructive forces to muscle in.

I very much doubt that anyone asks their plumber if they are "fully qualified" and "time served"

Well, be careful if you do during this strike.

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Possibly, but that is not what I or anyone would say is a fully qualified plumber.

Come on Callistemon21 just admit you were wrong. I very much doubt that anyone asks their plumber if they are "fully qualified" and "time served" you use one you've used before or one someone recommended.
Job comparisons are useful when people think a junior doctor who has thousands of pounds worth of debt after years of training is worth less per hour than a plumber.
Plumbers deserve their money but so do junior doctors.
The difference is one can charge you more in times of inflation, whereas the other is stuck, dependent on a government that doesn't want the organisation that employs them anyway.

One does not preclude the other, Glorianny and you only seem to have seen my comments on your comparisons in extremist terms.

I was not the one first comparing plumbers to doctors, you were, but merely pointed out that a reputable plumber and someone who deals with gas should be well qualified.
I then pointed out that they can earn far more than junior doctors and work more social hours.

I did not say that was right or condone it.

However, anyone who uses barely qualified tradesmen to deal with such things as gas and boilers, emissions, is very foolish imo.

I'm with the junior medics it shouldn't need to come to them having to take this action The Govt is at fault

Dickens 👍
It’s beginning to feel our country is returning to the kind of deference that used to be shown to our betters. Now it’s shown to the stinking rich

Doodledog

Excellent and thought-provoking post.

You are talking about a more fair, more equitable society for all. One that would function much better than it does at the moment. And I'm sure there are many who would agree with you.

But it seems like there's something intrinsically wrong in expecting a more just society because the minute you propose such, all kinds of posters (and I'm talking about the whole of social media) pop up to tell you that it can't work, it's not possible, you have to reward the high-achievers with huge salaries and low taxes, otherwise they'll bugger off somewhere else and take their wealth with them. They'll also insist that the low-paid should just - "get another job if you don't like it, or work harder or longer." It seems to be ingrained - we accept the huge wealth gap between rich and poor, and if you argue against it, it's either the politics of envy... or you're a Marxist.

I've been reading comments on an article about Elon Musk. Any criticism of him is met with an almost standard response which relates to the fact that he's hugely, hugely, rich and therefore very clever, and we must all admire him because.... he's so wealthy. You don't criticise billionaires - because you're not as rich as they are, therefore your comments are worthless. I made the point that sometimes empire-builders over-estimate their abilities and take wrong turns, and things begin to fall apart. Absolute heresy! I should keep quiet, I know nothing, his fans were on me like a ton of bricks! He's infallible!

Wealth is admired, wealthy people are admired. Know your place serf, and be impressed with a top-hat.

As if ronib. I used the Kings Fund regularly in my working life, and I still do - I regularly refer to articles in response to Gransnet threads too. They do produce press releases, but there’s nothing recent about the topic of this thread that I’ve seen, please post if you have found something relevant?

🥱

There you go again Casdon, dismissing things...😏

Casdon look again at the King’s Fund as it is very much in the here and now. A very credible charity working hard to improve the health service should not be so easily dismissed by you or anyone else!

Yes I understand Doodledog. And I agree with you.