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News & politics

Junior doctors strike

(407 Posts)
Daisymae Mon 10-Apr-23 08:17:49

4 days from tomorrow. Trusts are getting GPs in to cover A&E for up to £200 per hour. Seems that the government are hoping that this action will see support for the doctors to dwindle. I feel conflicted but I don't see the government pulling out all the stops to prevent this and the inevitable suffering and loss of life. A lot of people are unaware of the action and probably won't care until they are personally affected.

Doodledog Thu 13-Apr-23 12:11:05

I was talking generally, about the 'who is worth more' debate, maddy. Not just about doctors. I think education and training should be free at point of use, but should be paid back in kind, for everyone, not just doctors. That would remove the 'oh but it costs a lot to train' argument, as well as the things I pointed to in my earlier post, which is just thinking aloud, really.

Things now are not fair for any of us. So many groups are disadvantaged and overworked and demoralised and bloody angry. I do support the doctors, but as I say, their case is not helped by the suggestion that they are intrinsically more or less worthy than other groups, how much their training costs, or how many move away or into other sectors after qualifying.

We should be looking at fairness for everyone, and that absolutely includes junior doctors who are working unreasonable house for far too little reward.

maddyone Thu 13-Apr-23 11:59:47

Doctors already work four years compulsory for the NHS. The last two years of their medical training, in wards and GPs surgeries, working unpaid as student doctors. Sometimes supervised, often not supervised, but they are working. Then as employed, fully qualified doctors, for two further years as F1 and F2. Foundation grade junior doctors, working in the NHS. Poorly paid, but paid. Long hours, unsocial hours, often the only doctor for many wards at night. Often no time to go to the loo my daughter told me. I think that’s as much as we can expect of enforced working in the NHS. Two years unpaid and two years paid.

Casdon Thu 13-Apr-23 11:57:44

ronib

The King’s Fund is a good place to start for facts.

I regularly refer to the Kings Fund, but their speciality is detailed analysis based on historical information, it’s not useful for analysing the here and now position.

Doodledog Thu 13-Apr-23 11:53:27

But I definitely support the doctors! They do deserve more money - so do many other groups, but that does not detract from the doctor' case.

Doodledog Thu 13-Apr-23 11:52:09

This is nothing to do with the doctors' strikes. A plumber's charges are not his 'pay'. He will be charging for offtakes, NI, tax, wear and tear of equipment, transport, maybe premises, an accountant, insurance and goodness knows what else before he or she gets anything for him or herself. Doctors, in common with most other employees, are paid after their employers have factored all of that in.

The 'who is more valuable?' debate is massively complicated, and like pretty much everything is political. IMO (as a believer in a large but liberal state) we, collectively, should pay for all training and education for anyone who can benefit from it, and in the case of those whose careers are (or can be) in the public sector this should be in return for a pro-rata contract with the trainee that they will work for a pre-arranged period of time in the role for which they've been trained at a pre-agreed and index linked rate which is clear to both parties at the time of starting the training.

Those going into private sector careers could have additional taxes until their training is paid for. I would have no differential between expensive and cheaper courses - training would be at a flat rate to the trainee, so an engineer who needs expensive equipment to learn on would be paying back no more than someone whose course is book-based and cheaper to teach. I would make it prohibitively expensive, or even impossible for someone trained on a 'public sector' free course to switch to a private sector role before their payback time has elapsed.

That way, if we need more doctors/teachers/town planners, we can pay for them in the knowledge that they will be there for x years, and nobody need be put off going into any profession, trade or whatever because of the cost of training. That would restrict the field to the most talented, not those most able to absorb prohibitive costs. A sensible government (I know, but this is never going to happen anyway grin) could plan for things like surges in the birthrate, an ageing population, or whatever, and ensure that there are enough relevant people to fill the roles that are needed.

I wouldn't exclude poets, musicians and artists from any of this. They would still get free education in the Arts, and would pay taxes on their work washing dishes and waiting tables which is how most make their living, but would stop us from becoming a nation of barbarians. I see them as worthy too. As are hairdressers and other groups who earn little but work hard and improve our lives in different ways.

Differentials in pay are, IMO, necessary, but there shouldn't be as much of a gap as there is now. We all need one another - yes, we can't do without some things (eg ambulance drivers, doctors, care workers), but life would be pretty inconvenient without sewage workers, plumbers and shop assistants and miserable without TV producers, actors, artists and authors.

maddyone Thu 13-Apr-23 11:51:56

foxie I agree with Glorianny, you’ve written a brilliant post.

ronib Thu 13-Apr-23 11:42:30

The King’s Fund is a good place to start for facts.

volver3 Thu 13-Apr-23 11:40:01

It's time for the opinion vs. facts chat again, isn't it?

Primrose53 Thu 13-Apr-23 11:33:46

volver3

Primrose53

volver3

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

We had this discussion yesterday. People are free to read or not as they choose but the facts are there.

I defy anybody to read that ridiculous and slanted Daily Mail article and tell me that its all fine and they only buy it for the crosswords and the weekend magazine

Its disgusting.

Thought you refused to read it!🤣🤣🤣

Remember, just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean you are right …… and thousands would disagree with you.

Glorianny Thu 13-Apr-23 11:28:41

foxie48 that's brilliant, wish there was a like button!

foxie48 Thu 13-Apr-23 11:24:31

It is indeed a funny old world with topsy turvy values. Hancock thinks he's worth £10k an hour, which would actually pay up to three junior doctors for a month depending on their level of experience. It's OK to drop the ceiling on banker's bonus's because we don't want them defecting to other countries but not OK to pay doctors a decent wage to keep them working for the NHS. It's fine to change the pension rules to stop Consultants retiring early but fail to mention that it also benefits far more high earners who earn loads more than consultants. Some of us don't want to pay higher taxes but will vote for people who don't pay their taxes (NZ). It's OK for MPs to have lucrative second jobs which they do instead of their constituency work but not OK for doctors to work privately outside their contracted hours and it's perfectly acceptable to provide subsidised meals on site for MPs but not for hospital doctors. I could go on........

Glorianny Thu 13-Apr-23 11:04:34

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Possibly, but that is not what I or anyone would say is a fully qualified plumber.

Come on Callistemon21 just admit you were wrong. I very much doubt that anyone asks their plumber if they are "fully qualified" and "time served" you use one you've used before or one someone recommended.
Job comparisons are useful when people think a junior doctor who has thousands of pounds worth of debt after years of training is worth less per hour than a plumber.
Plumbers deserve their money but so do junior doctors.
The difference is one can charge you more in times of inflation, whereas the other is stuck, dependent on a government that doesn't want the organisation that employs them anyway.

MaizieD Thu 13-Apr-23 10:58:59

Why does a top lawyer, barrister, or KC, earn absolutely hugely more than a consultant level doctor?

I was thinking about this yesterday, and about Yammy paying £60 an hour for servicing her boiler. And about how people willingly pay £30 per hr or more labour charges to the garage that services their car; or £40 - 50 for a private physio. Yes and £100s per hr for a top barrister...

Yet they are squealing about paying NHS doctors a bit more than the living wage. And moaning and groaning about the poor service they get from GPs. And saying that they shouldn't be leaving the NHS to get better paid jobs abroad because being a doctor is a 'vocation' and people with a 'vocation' should be expected to work for a pittance because... because why?

Does this all boil down to the fact that the NHS is publicly funded, which seems to be a Bad Thing in their eyes and all the other well paid occupations are really private enterprise? Or do they just not care that the tories have been underfunding the NHS (and other public services) for the past 13 years that they have been in power and that the NHS is at crisis point?

Are they looking forward to a US style health services where if you can't afford to pay you die? Because if the junior doctors don't win this fight this is where we are heading...

I'm not the only person on this thread who has pointed out that the government has made an ideological choice not to pay decent wages, a choice that they have been making for the past 13 years with pay freezes for public sector staff. I also am not the only person to point out that the money is always there for what the government wants to spend it on.

I have pointed out over and over again that state investment in services actually helps to grow the economy and will increase the tax take; not my 'opinion' but the factually based opinion of many economists. But let's just ignore that and have a moan...

maddyone Thu 13-Apr-23 10:11:35

The worth of a person according to their job is interesting isn’t it? Is a junior doctor or a back bench MP worth more? Why does a top lawyer, barrister, or KC, earn absolutely hugely more than a consultant level doctor? Aren’t the skills of the two commensurate? Not too sure about the skills of the average back bench MP, but I do know about the skills of a junior doctor.
If find it strange that some posters actually seem to want junior doctors to work for low pay and seem resentful of them asking for their pay to be corrected to the level it was some ten or so years ago. It baffles me.

Siope Thu 13-Apr-23 09:45:08

Bless the Daily Mail’s little Schrodinger’s heart:

The BMA has been taken over by socialists who are actually capitalist swine, demanding more money for doctors…

Callistemon21 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:42:16

Anyway, job comparisons are not really helpful as we head towards a meltdown in the NHS.

Callistemon21 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:39:36

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Possibly, but that is not what I or anyone would say is a fully qualified plumber.

Glorianny Thu 13-Apr-23 09:36:38

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

volver3 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:33:30

Primrose53

volver3

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

We had this discussion yesterday. People are free to read or not as they choose but the facts are there.

I defy anybody to read that ridiculous and slanted Daily Mail article and tell me that its all fine and they only buy it for the crosswords and the weekend magazine

Its disgusting.

westendgirl Thu 13-Apr-23 09:31:50

It is down to the tory government with their lack funding in health, in education, in care. I too support the junior doctors, as I do the teachers.

Primrose53 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:31:10

volver3

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

We had this discussion yesterday. People are free to read or not as they choose but the facts are there.

volver3 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:20:14

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

Dickens Thu 13-Apr-23 09:16:52

Look at the wealth gap.

Look at what those important big-boys of businesses and large corporations insist they are worth (and sometimes rely on the government to top-up the wages of their lower ranks). Look at MPs who have pretty hefty, regular, pay rises. Look at those two, Hancock and Kwarteng caught in a Led By Donkeys' trap, stating what they wanted as a 'fee'... what they think they are worth.

These are the same people who are pontificating, telling us directly, or indirectly, that junior doctors are being unrealistic and implying they are 'greedy'.

Who is paying for the wage top-ups for the workers of those companies who don't pay a realistic wage? Who's paying for the MPs salaries?

Primrose53 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:15:35

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11966963/STEPHEN-GLOVER-junior-doctors-backing-strike-based-falsehood.html

Also another excellent article in the DM today by Andrew Pierce.

Wyllow3 Thu 13-Apr-23 09:13:58

I'm one of the ones with a retired doctor in my family, but I'm not supporting the strike because of the -its helpful additional information is all.

Have very reason to be scared and even bitter: cut backs a couple of years doctors and nurses ago seriously affected my care in one respect of doctors and nurses: I am currently sporting a pre-cancerous lump and will have to wait longer than comfortable for its removal.

But I place the blame where it belongs: in a government who has been underfunding the NHS for years, which we all know about given waiting times, again for some considerable time, with lack of care facilities to move people onto:

Not with 4 days of strikes.