Junior doctors strike

ronib

Meanwhile MSM reports that Dr Robert Laurenson , co leader of the BMA is on one week’s holiday. Also that the BMA has asked ACAS to get involved with the government yet to agree.

I wondered when someone would mention this! Laurenson is a trainee GP so I can't speak for his leave arrangements but I can tell you about obtaining leave as a junior hospital doctor. They are allocated a rota and if they want leave when they are booked to work they have to organise this themselves by getting a colleague to swap with them. This is always difficult to do around holiday periods as these are times when everyone wants to be off but when it's for a special reason likes weddings and funerals etc, other doctors will often help out by swapping shifts but sometimes it's not possible. my daughter has missed weddings, Christmas's etc but it's just part of the job. For all we know, Laurenson may have been on off days following shifts, his GP practice may be closed over Easter for 4 days and he'd organised cover for the rest of his shift or taken leave well in advance of the decision to strike and already worked his extra shifts to cover. He is though, like everyone else who works entitled to have a holiday.

I have no doctors in my family. I support the junior doctors (and other healthcare staff that are striking) completely. This is because I want an NHS, or other universal healthcare system, for my last years, for my children, for my grandchildren, and even for those of you who apparently don’t give a toss.

Meanwhile MSM reports that Dr Robert Laurenson , co leader of the BMA is on one week’s holiday. Also that the BMA has asked ACAS to get involved with the government yet to agree.

Oreo

Casdon I didn’t say ‘most’ people agreed with me.

I know. You said many people agree with you. I said most people don’t agree with you.

Casdon I didn’t say ‘most’ people agreed with me.

Oh, should have said.

I nearly died a decade ago when a doctor misdiagnosed me. It hasn't left me bitter and it's doesn't mean I think all doctors should work for a pittance because they are bad guys.

Oreo

nj30 and Primrose53 and gn38 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I agree and bet many people do. Ignore any personal attacks saying you must be ‘angry’ or ‘bitter’ simply for recounting experiences and giving your opinion, seems to be the usual method on here for trying to rubbish any opposing views.
The junior doctors committee are encouraging their colleagues to stick out for huge pay rises which they cynically know they won’t get while patients suffer and die as a result.
Caring profession?
GN members with doctors in the family are up in arms about criticism but that criticism is deserved in this case in my and many others point of view.

Most people don’t agree with you Oreo, whether they have doctors in their family or not.
www.ipsos.com/en-uk/over-half-britons-support-junior-doctors-taking-strike-action

Some posts on here make me sick.

I don't have doctors in the family.

nj30 and Primrose53 and gn38 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I agree and bet many people do. Ignore any personal attacks saying you must be ‘angry’ or ‘bitter’ simply for recounting experiences and giving your opinion, seems to be the usual method on here for trying to rubbish any opposing views.
The junior doctors committee are encouraging their colleagues to stick out for huge pay rises which they cynically know they won’t get while patients suffer and die as a result.
Caring profession?
GN members with doctors in the family are up in arms about criticism but that criticism is deserved in this case in my and many others point of view.

nj30

I really do not agree with the junior doctors striking. Not only are lives going to be placed at risk, the lengthy wait for operations and treatment is only going to worsen. Everyone would like better pay but this is often not realistic. The government should pay them for what they are worth? Where does the government get their money from? Joe Taxpayer in the main. I certainly would not want to be paying higher taxes and NI contributions at a time when I too am feeling the pinch and having to cut back on even essentials. I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

Are you saying that doctors who've possibly had to train for 7 years - and even more if they specialise, incurring a large debt which has to be repaid in the process, should just be grateful that they have a job?

Perhaps you get paid less because you don't have the same expertise nor level of responsibility?

I really do not agree with the junior doctors striking. Not only are lives going to be placed at risk, the lengthy wait for operations and treatment is only going to worsen. Everyone would like better pay but this is often not realistic. The government should pay them for what they are worth? Where does the government get their money from? Joe Taxpayer in the main. I certainly would not want to be paying higher taxes and NI contributions at a time when I too am feeling the pinch and having to cut back on even essentials. I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early

Consultants are retiring earlier than they need or want to because of the rules about how much they can contribute to their pension funds.

Another ridiculous scenario which helps no-one as experienced doctors leave the profession.

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

I still don't understand the thinking(?) of those who rubbish medical professionals and then stamp their metaphorical feet, blaming the very same health experts when they do not always get what they expect when they expect it. Why are the doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc., to blame?

I wonder if those saying such things know what people with these very high qualifications can earn elsewhere. They seem to want to chase them towards these jobs. Do they realise how sort after these people are? Do they re

Everyone has a living to earn and owes it to themselves and their families to make that the best it can be while doing the best that they can. Perhaps they are out of touch with the international market in salaries doctors can earn. In this country, this government has given them real-term cuts in earnings for the last 14 years. Perhaps they don't understand what that means either.

I can think of no other reason for the bitter criticism towards those working for our health care under the worst circumstances chosen by, I would suggest, any government since the war. It is not just the drag on salaries but the conditions they work under. The NHS has been starved of funding. They haven't decided this because we can't afford it. They have chosen it because they believe only in private health care as, I presume, do those that put them into government and vote to keep them there.

Why are you so bitter, Primrose? I don't think for a minute all doctors or nurses are saints, they are human beings like the rest of us and don't always respond in an ideal way when under extreme pressures. but when you look at the whole picture, we stand together or fall in terms of having a decent health service.

Like anyone else, doctors and nurses need appreciation and suitable recognition of their work to best function. Lets give them that, instead of denigration and criticism.

Our leaders - all of whmhave access to private care

dont care. We need to direct our anger there, not at those on the picket lines. BTW, locally our local hospital has picket lines outside and they are quietly standing with banners etc - its a minority who shout in a way that offends some.

Doctors qualifying at the time of my sister mostly had substantial backing of the bank of mum and dad. I'm glad the profession is now open to many without that backing but it means they need both financial and emotional support. the same programme (Look North, BBC) did a vox pop interview in a very ordinary area of my town. The support was amazing from the "I'm not political but...".

My mum was in hospital over Christmas after her last fall. She had severe cramp due to a sodium deficiency. A junior doctor had to be sent for. He seemed to be the only doctor around. He seemed very young, but he was caring, compassionate and amusing. He was wearing a Christmas jumper which my mum loved. But the amount of responsibility he had was incredible. All of those patients depending on him. I can't think any amount would really be enough as recompense for such responsibilities.

I’m so pleased that you received such wonderful care and compassion Iam.
When my father was dying some seven years ago, it was a junior doctor who told us. We were given the facts but in a compassionate way. It’s really not something I would have liked on my job description.

Primrose53, you sound very very angry and unable to see any of the comments here that don’t share your anger, as being driven by “sob stories”.
What an offensive way to describe views you disagree with. My husband died 6 months ago, after the most difficult six months of our lives. One of my over riding memories are the end of life discussion with the ‘junior’ doctor’ on his ward. Then the nurse we were introduced to who was to be lead care in the five days during which his life on this earth ebbed away. That nurse worked 14 hour days. Her professional skill superb but her compassion, ability to sit with us, holding our hands, hugging appropriately, and always talking to him, explaining what she was about to do.

Oh, for heaven's sake, Primrose53, you seem to be confusing GPs with hospital doctors. GPs are not on strike. It's the 'junior' doctors in hospitals who are on strike. And 'junior' , as has been already been explained, several times, means any grade of doctor below Consultant level.

There are bad practitioners in any profession or job. No, doctors are not gods, they are fallible human beings. But perhaps you'd like to tell us how many doctors there are in England and Wales and just what percentage of them are struck off every year. Then your comments might hold some weight.. Otherwise they're just a bit of irrelevant whataboutery.

If you, or friends or family have experienced poor care I am sorry but it's no reason to tar the entire profession with the same brush...

Primrose53

Everybody can write sob stories about how poor and overworked junior doctors are but as they progress they start earning very generous salaries. They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early. Take GPs, they don’t do anywhere near what GPs did years ago. They did everything including home visits. You can forget those now.

If you have a doctor in your family, obviously you sympathise with them but if you have had poor treatment, suffered a death in the family because of negligent treatment or failure to refer you for further tests which result in a terminal illness then you don’t have much sympathy.

Just look at the lists of doctors who have been struck off, have abused patients, have stolen drugs, have killed patients etc. Not all Doctors are the next thing to God!

No, they aren't next to God, but I cannot imagine anyone going into the profession who didn't have some form of compassion in them? I have received very poor treatment from some of them over the years, more so from nurses actually, and I am one so I know how it should be done

As for Home Visits, I can get one if I need one

Primrose53

Everybody can write sob stories about how poor and overworked junior doctors are but as they progress they start earning very generous salaries. They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early. Take GPs, they don’t do anywhere near what GPs did years ago. They did everything including home visits. You can forget those now.

If you have a doctor in your family, obviously you sympathise with them but if you have had poor treatment, suffered a death in the family because of negligent treatment or failure to refer you for further tests which result in a terminal illness then you don’t have much sympathy.

Just look at the lists of doctors who have been struck off, have abused patients, have stolen drugs, have killed patients etc. Not all Doctors are the next thing to God!

Wow, I can only assume that you've had a bad experience with a doctor. I have too, I broke 2 vertebrae in an accident, had brilliant care from the paramedics who took me to hospital but had the most appalling treatment in my local hospital. I am very lucky that I still have use of my arms and legs. However, I don't judge every doctor and nurse by that experience as I've also had excellent treatment. There are good and bad in every profession but I think there are many more good doctors and nurses than bad ones. I hope you complained formally if you had a "bad" experience. I did and I strongly support anyone else who does. Doctors are not the next thing to God but they do stop many people from meeting him prematurely!

Primrose
You don’t know what you don’t know.

Everybody can write sob stories about how poor and overworked junior doctors are but as they progress they start earning very generous salaries. They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early. Take GPs, they don’t do anywhere near what GPs did years ago. They did everything including home visits. You can forget those now.

If you have a doctor in your family, obviously you sympathise with them but if you have had poor treatment, suffered a death in the family because of negligent treatment or failure to refer you for further tests which result in a terminal illness then you don’t have much sympathy.

Just look at the lists of doctors who have been struck off, have abused patients, have stolen drugs, have killed patients etc. Not all Doctors are the next thing to God!

foxie48

gn38 if your grandchildren manage to get a training placwe at med school they may be sorely disappointed. Doctors no longer have the status they used to have, you only have to read the comments on this thread and they are certainly not well paid. I suggest they go into banking or recruitment for the money. I doubt they'll enjoy it much when they do their first rectal examination, smell the breath of a patient with a severe lung infection or get covered in body fluids of one sort or another, or have to tell a parent that their beloved child is dead. If I were you I'd have a chat with them to put them straight!

Absolutely!
Law carries status and if they’re good enough, pays extremely well. It mustn’t be criminal law though, that doesn’t pay well because guess what, the government set the level.

foxie48

She may be on the GP retention scheme
"The GP retention scheme is a package of support for GPs considering leaving the profession – and for the practices employing them – to help them remain in clinical practice, providing one to four sessions per week."

Thank you *foxie48