Another Death at Aintree

volver3

We'll just give up then, shall we?

Not at all. I just want to know what exactly I’m supposed to be doing. And I’m confused because I thought animal rights people were campaigning to save them not wipe them out.

I tend to agree with you MB70. Human beings, the killer ape?

We'll just give up then, shall we?

So, which animals are to be phased out first? And, if global warming does increase in the meantime what happens if countries can’t grow enough crops to feed everyone? The whole thing needs to be organised on a worldwide scale and I can’t see that happening. We need to stop people having wars first. Imo the only animal that really needs phasing out is the human being because we’re the ones causing all the trouble.

volver3

Your assumption that giving the animals these rights would stop all animal "ownership" is flawed. Nobody wants to take your pet kitty away.

It needs to be understood that if we didn't have the man-made exploitation of animals for factory farming, "sport" or anything else, nobody would have to worry about what happens to the animals. Because they wouldn't have existed in the first place.

There is no law of nature that leads to there being so many "domesticated" animals around. The idea isn't that everything stops tomorrow and all the lovely racehorses are allowed to run free. The idea is that things are phased out. We don't replace the lovely racehorses with other lovely racehorses that we can exploit, or replace lovely fat piggies with other lovely fat piggies that we can eat.

I think there might be a misconception that animal right activists are sentimental about animals and think they are all just fluffy bunnies we need to look after in our back yards. Animal rights activists know that what their actions will lead to is fewer animals, I'm not sure those complaining about them get that fact.

Exactly.

It is my view that if domesticated animals don't have a "purpose" they will eventually cease to exist or just be kept as exhibits.

And the problem with that is what, exactly?

Volver I don't have a problem with there being "fewer animals" I just don't understand why you seem to make a distinction between "domesticated animals" and "wild animals" fwiw I don't have a "kitty" but I have fed a feral cat (after paying for it to be neutered) and he lived for many happy years around the place doing a great job of keeping the rats and mice down. Since his demise we are over run with rabbits, mice and rats.
We now also have muntjac, who don't have a breeding season, so breed continously through the year. Obviously not native but with over 250,000 estimated to be living in the UK they are becoming a bit of a problem. We also have roe deer, who are native, but it's not ideal to have them crossing busy roads and there are badgers everywhere, with no natural predator they are increasing rapidly in numbers.
PETA doesn't agree with culling, their position is that starvation and disease is a better way of reducing numbers, I disagree with this. My neighbour helps cull deer both locally and in Scotland. I am given venison, which is a lean healthy meat and I feel this is a much better way of reducing populations.
We don't actually have any wild ponies/horses in the UK, the native ponies living on the moors and in the forests are all owned and great care is taken to breed only from the best. Exmoor ponies are still considered an endangered breed, some while ago they were in very poor shape but thankfully human intervention has saved the breed and they are being used quite frequently for conservation work as they live very frugally and are able to eat very tough plants which other animals won't touch, leaving room for our more delicate native species to thrive. I would happily see fewer TBs being bred for racing, as I've said in an earlier post I disagree with horses going into training as two year olds and I would certainly make changes to the Grand National but because I am involved with horses and equestrian sports I am fully aware that the long term aim of some animal rights groups is to try to stop horses being ridden for any purpose. It is my view that if domesticated animals don't have a "purpose" they will eventually cease to exist or just be kept as exhibits. You only have to see what has happened with heavy horses, they are rarer than the Giant Panda!

Someone I know that I campaigned with for the people’s vote is now saying that peaceful protest doesn’t work and she supports the protesters from last Saturday. I can’t be having that: I’m proud that our protests were peaceful ( we didn’t even drop any litter!). Now, the ones that really get me thinking are the Red Rebels. I don’t quite know what they tap into with me but, when they do a silent protest it really makes me think and reappraise my own beliefs.

These things aren't sentimental MaizieD. "All animals are worthy of respect and shouldn't be exploited" doesn't mean the same as "let the rats take over".

We seem to have managed to do it in the past.

Fair point about the vermin MaizieD, I don't know how that would work. Maybe somebody here knows.

This is it, isn't it? Some animals are worthy of respect and shouldn't be exploited. Some aren't. Where do animal activists draw the line? Do they draw a line at all?

I do appreciate that we couldn't just turn all our pets loose

Though I think my kitties would fend for themselves pretty efficiently. I've a champion rabbit catcher...

Fair point about the vermin MaizieD, I don't know how that would work. Maybe somebody here knows.

But when I see people saying things like "how will all the little puppy dogs cope" or "what will happen to all the cows in the fields" I am quite surprised that people don't think this bit through.

^ Animal rights activists know that what their actions will lead to is fewer animals^

I'm not too sure that this follows.

I think that what is says is that their actions will lead to fewer of the animals they don't want to eat or see people keeping for sporting use.

I'm not too sure how they would feel about their neighbourhoods being overrun or their plant based foodstuffs destroyed or eaten by animals such as rats, mice and rabbits. Because we'd have to ban their destruction, too, wouldn't we?

Or do they think that their numbers will be kept in check by their natural predators? Animals eating other animals, in other words. Just like human animals have done for thousands and thousands of years...

Just musing...

Your assumption that giving the animals these rights would stop all animal "ownership" is flawed. Nobody wants to take your pet kitty away.

It needs to be understood that if we didn't have the man-made exploitation of animals for factory farming, "sport" or anything else, nobody would have to worry about what happens to the animals. Because they wouldn't have existed in the first place.

There is no law of nature that leads to there being so many "domesticated" animals around. The idea isn't that everything stops tomorrow and all the lovely racehorses are allowed to run free. The idea is that things are phased out. We don't replace the lovely racehorses with other lovely racehorses that we can exploit, or replace lovely fat piggies with other lovely fat piggies that we can eat.

I think there might be a misconception that animal right activists are sentimental about animals and think they are all just fluffy bunnies we need to look after in our back yards. Animal rights activists know that what their actions will lead to is fewer animals, I'm not sure those complaining about them get that fact.

If you look at all of the organisations that exist to promote "animal rights" in the broadest sense they seem to range from those that are primarily concerned with the welfare of animals to those that want animals completely removed from human activity. The following is from "Generation Vegan"
"With rights, they would not be trapped, beaten, caged, artificially inseminated, mutilated, drugged, traded, transported, harmed and killed just because someone else profits by it."
Clearly that would stop all animal "ownership" whether it be for food, companionship, leisure or sporting activities. Animals would live only in the wild. Quite a few of the animal rights organisations seem to be at this end of the spectrum, what I don't understand is how they would effectively "rewild" everyone's pets and how well did they think a domesticated dog, cat, horse pig, sheep etc would cope without the intervention of humans. We have domesticated animals for thousands of years and they are far removed from their original species. I am totally supportive of organisations that exist to improve animal welfare but they are not the ones that protest at race meetings etc.

The News Agents podcast did an interview with Saturdays protesters. Unfortunately I don’t know how to access it ( do I have to pay to subscribe to it?). It does put forward their long term aims in which they point out that we have to reappraise our relationship with animals. Which is true and which I agree with. But I still don’t agree with their behaviour on Saturday. I don’t think it highlighted their long term aims.

Interesting article by Jenni Murray in DM today. An avid horse and Grand National fan even she is wondering about the number of horses killed, the suitability of some of the jumps and the use of the whip.

Thank you for clarifying Foxie

The horses and ponies I have known have lost their lives in so man ways: colic, grass sickness (still nobody knows what causes that) heart attack, kicks from other horses ( that includes a foal that was turned out with it’s mum in a field with others).The vet told me that colic often takes older horses in autumn that may not survive the winter. Decisions have to be made in autumn when it comes to older horses if they’re starting to lose condition. I worry that pregnant mares will die foaling (heartbreaking). Sometimes you have time to plan what’s going to happen but quite often you have to act very fast. I nearly bought a pony with a melanoma because the owner said it would live with it into old age: my vet advised otherwise. Then there’s laminitis, Cushings. And in summer they get plagued by flies! I wouldn’t want to come back as a horse.

Fleurpepper

foxie48

I have had to have horses PTS and I've always done it at home in their field. I also let their companion horses into the field before the body is taken away so they can view and accept that their friend is no longer alive. I always stay with the horse while it is PTS (as I do with my dogs) but I never stay to watch the body being removed, I would find it too upsetting and I move the other horses into another paddock so they are out of the way. I've never used an abattoir but I wouldn't blame anyone who did. I know our local one treats horses well and does a humane job. My neighbour used the local hunt and I stayed with him as he used to be in one of our paddocks and knew me. The kennel man was extremely kind and efficient. Euthanasia is part and parcel of owning animals, always painful but IMO the last act of kindness that I can show. It's easier when they are very old and are ready to go but my last two were as a result of illness (strangulated colic) and serious injury, both were devastating.

My neighbour used the local hunt

could you explain what that mean, please?

This thread however was never meant to discuss horse keeping in general, was it?

Nope but it's what always happens when you get "horsey" people together, they start talking endlessly about horsey stuff! In answer to your question, many hunts will collect fallen stock and will also come out to PTS stock including horses. They shoot them and having seen it done, it is a quick death which some owners prefer to an injection. They will remove the body, taking it back to the kennels and it gets fed to hounds. Vets will also shoot or use injection the body is then collected and usually incinerated. I'm afraid neither is "nice" to watch but all my horses have already been sedated to help manage their pain so injection is better. fwiw horses rarely die in their sleep they are usually euthanased when the quality of their life is severely compromised by injury, illness and/or old age. Just to be clear, I don't and never have hunted but I live on the boundary of two hunt countries, one hunt acts completely legally, the other most definitely does not, but clearly that is not for this particular thread!

The local hunt will for a fee, come and shoot a horse and dispose of the body. Sounds a bit umm, but in reality they're kindness itself usually taking the horse down a quiet lane, away from other ponies, talking to and giving the odd treat, letting them graze. The deed is quick and efficient while the horse is unaware. Disposal of a dead horse can be a real problem if done by the vet and much more distressing.

Yes Laminitis is horrible, we lost two ponies that way in the early days, and nearly lost our DDs New Forest to colic. We had taken him on as a rescue. The people who had had him previously had bought him aged 10months on a whim from the N.F sales for their young daughter to learn to ride on!! Unfortunately they failed to care for him on a daily basis, preferring to leave enough food water and hay for three days or more!! Two days after we took him on he was sweating and groaning! A monumental battle for his life began and with the brilliant care from our wonderful Dutch vet he was saved to go onto becoming a terrific jumper and cross-country boy, finally dying at 28, so he was a small triumph!

Maybe not, but it’s interesting.Am learning a lot about horses on here.

foxie48

I have had to have horses PTS and I've always done it at home in their field. I also let their companion horses into the field before the body is taken away so they can view and accept that their friend is no longer alive. I always stay with the horse while it is PTS (as I do with my dogs) but I never stay to watch the body being removed, I would find it too upsetting and I move the other horses into another paddock so they are out of the way. I've never used an abattoir but I wouldn't blame anyone who did. I know our local one treats horses well and does a humane job. My neighbour used the local hunt and I stayed with him as he used to be in one of our paddocks and knew me. The kennel man was extremely kind and efficient. Euthanasia is part and parcel of owning animals, always painful but IMO the last act of kindness that I can show. It's easier when they are very old and are ready to go but my last two were as a result of illness (strangulated colic) and serious injury, both were devastating.

My neighbour used the local hunt

could you explain what that mean, please?

This thread however was never meant to discuss horse keeping in general, was it?

The trouble with Welshies is that they're nonstop eating machines. It must be a 'folk memory' of deprivation 😄
My DD's horse has developed a technique for pulling the electric fence posts out of the ground, he then walks over the fallen tape. I've resorted to heras fencing to keep him in the right place...

foxie48, that made me laugh, because the Welsh Sec B that I mentioned in my comment was exactly the same - she'd quite happily barge her way through most electric fences if the fancy took her!