Apparently it is our fault that the economy is such rubbish because we can’t add up

However in the '60s in an all girls school with no male staff, maths teachers were hard to come by.

I'm still finding this statement a bit startling with its implication that only men can teach maths!

'He - and the rest of the politicians - should just butt out.'

Does this poster not think M Sunak might be looking at this as a parent with two young daughters setting out on this path. As a parent he is good to stand up for what the rest of us thinks.

Foxygloves

growstuff

Foxygloves What 75% final salary pensions? People who think that's what public service workers receive are living on another planet - there' probably no hope for them.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/pity-the-doctors-fighting-for-their-1m-pensions/

You might like to read this

Errrm! My partner has a similar "pension pot", but his pension isn't 75% of his salary. In his case, he's losing half of it to his ex-wife anyway, but if he weren't, it would be 50% of his final salary after over 40 years working in universities.

Daft to blame the unpopularity of maths as a subject on the Tories. The state of the economy is due to many factors. However, I have no doubt that it it vital to re renergise educational attitudes to STEM subjects. This can only be to the country's benefit.

Aveline

Daft to blame the unpopularity of maths as a subject on the Tories. The state of the economy is due to many factors. However, I have no doubt that it it vital to re renergise educational attitudes to STEM subjects. This can only be to the country's benefit.

Who's blaming the Tories for the country's anti-maths mindset? I'm certainly not.

Yammy

I would say literacy before numeracy. If you can't read you don't know what the question is, the rules to using a computer programme or where you are going with road signs never mind how long it takes to get there.
How long have they been trying to get literacy sorted out? Since I started teaching in the early seventies. It's like the Hokey Cokey, phonics in phonics out, whole word flashcards and you turn it all about.
If you can't read how do you know where to switch the computer on by osmosis?

I tend to agree with you about the supreme importance of literacy, Yammy, though I don't think that teaching both together is impossible. We managed to learn both together at primary school back in the 50s and 60s...

I think that maths suffered from the teaching methods hokey cokey that you describe, particularly the dislike of 'rote learning' that made phonics and tables such a no no in the 80s and 90s. How could one possibly go on to more complex maths if you're still struggling to work out 9 x 8 on your fingers? As I saw many children trying to do when working as a TA in secondary.

* I'm not talking about understanding calculus, but I think everybody has the capacity to do basic maths, apart from a handful with genuine dyscalculia.*

If a child hasn’t mastered basic maths by age 16 they aren’t going to are they, let’s be straight about things. I didn’t presume Sunak was talking about basic maths but maths as in GCSE and A level surely all children have achieved basic maths ie adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying, money and measurements by age 12 if they are going to.

So what are they going to be doing between 16 and 18 just going over and over primary school stuff ….how to hold a child back and bore them rigid when they could be learning on a job and earning money on the first rung of the ladder
Kids don’t need higher maths to have a useful career

I should have said not ALL kids need higher maths to have a useful career

Maths is all around us.

Yes, it is and everyone uses it every day in some form or another.

A basic understanding of number and Applied Maths is essential but Pure Maths at a more advanced level is only necessary for those who will need it for a career.

BlueBelle

I should have said not ALL kids need higher maths to have a useful career

I’m not convinced by that argument. My GS just finishing his electrical engineering degree - yet certainly. My GSs girl friend just finishing her psychology degree relating in particular to children and going on to do a PhD - not so much.

Exactly Callistemon what I m trying to say is if basic maths has not been achieved by 16 it won’t be achieved in two extra years that the kids don’t want to be sitting at a desk
A better idea would be go to work …construction, factory, shop whatever and do one day a week achieving what extra maths is considered needed
A levels, college, Uni is wonderful for those that want it but don’t knock kids that leave school without higher achievements but go on to have good useful careers
There is many much needed jobs where we are madly short of workers

There’s been a shortage of properly qualified maths teachers for years. Why would a maths graduate go into teaching when they can earn shed loads more in other professions?

Am I the only person with sufficient literacy skills to have read the article in The Spectator on the huge pension payments to hospital consultants? I could weep.

Or maybe Me Sunak needs to introduce a way of interpreting statistics with political context? It might help us all.

Isn't it interesting that a government that has steadily been cutting the funding for education and destroying support for early years suddenly thinks there is a problem with one single subject. Anyone could have told him it isn't a maths problem it is an education problem. But that obviously is beyond his understanding. Sadly there isn't any subject that can be taught that will educate Mr Sunak.

I am not a mathematician but there is a lot of maths in music and I love the logic of it. I enjoy numeracy and, despite being better at English, like the maths rounds on Countdown the best. It is amazing how bad many adults are at simple arithmetic. My mother is brilliant at maths and won a university place to read the subject. From time to time we comment on the fact that so many people give a little giggle and say, coyly, that they have never been any good at maths. Why is it considered ok to admit to being innumerate when the same people would be horrified at being considered illiterate?

growstuff

Foxygloves

growstuff

Foxygloves What 75% final salary pensions? People who think that's what public service workers receive are living on another planet - there' probably no hope for them.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/pity-the-doctors-fighting-for-their-1m-pensions/

You might like to read this

Errrm! My partner has a similar "pension pot", but his pension isn't 75% of his salary. In his case, he's losing half of it to his ex-wife anyway, but if he weren't, it would be 50% of his final salary after over 40 years working in universities.

I know this is difficult and potentially upsetting, dear reader, but try to imagine what it must be like to be 50-something with a pension pot worth close to £1,073,100. That pot is likely to yield a lump-sum payment of more than £150,000 on retirement, followed by an annual income of close to £50,000 for the rest of your days

I just know as a retired teacher I would not have minded a £150k lump sum and a monthly pension of £4.000 !

ronib

MerylStreep my pride was injured along with acquiring an inherent distrust of teachers! Like you, maths was instantly ditched.
I am glad that Rishi Sunak is trying to share his love of learning so it will be interesting to see how he thinks maths can be encouraged and taught to a higher standard. Better than our early years!

Some teachers teach math with enthusiasm. Others as if it's a chore, and they are not very good at putting it across , not keeping pupils engaged. Hence the youngster behind the till who is flummoxed when said till breaks down, and they can't give right change
It all starts in primary school, make math fun, not scary.

That's precisely why maths (or any subject) shouldn't be taught by teachers without training.

When I taught maths, the subject content itself wasn't difficult, but I didn't have the experience or tricks up my sleeve to explain things to pupils who were experiencing difficulties. I'm a languages teacher and the same could be said about teachers who haven't had languages-specific training.

I gave up maths at 14 (hated the maths teacher) but I did do bookkeeping so I know how to run a a balance sheet for my business.

I am constantly amazed at the so-called business people on Dragon's Den who appear not to understand the difference between turnover, gross and net profit.

Everyone should be able to balance their household or personal accounts.

Philippa111

We are not all made the same Mr Sunak!

Not everyone has a brain for Maths and not everyone needs to have! I know I didn't. I'm what is described as a 'high creative' and our brains work differently.

Creatives are the artists, poets, music composers, writers , film makers, wild life photographers etc.Unfortunately, in our culture, this group of equally skilled people are seen as less important than bankers, financiers, accountants, scientists etc.

Having written my previous post, I could also not agree more with what you have written. In my own subject, music, l have been appalled for years at the way it is being brushed out of the curriculum to a great extent. Fewer and fewer children are getting a chance to learn an instrument - when l was at school the peripatetic system was at its height and not only were lessons free but you could also borrow an instrument to start with. I would never have had the opportunity to learn the violin otherwise as my parents would not have been able to afford a second set of private lessons as l was already learning the piano. This scheme meant that there were many who discovered a talent and enjoyment of different types of music that they might not have had the opportunity to do so otherwise. School and youth orchestras, bands and choirs were thriving. Sadly, music seems to be more and more the preserve of the private schools and state schools are increasingly geared towards pop music. Pop music is fine but classical music is being seen as elitist, which it really should not be. Also, children are not being taught traditional folk songs - our heritage - either. It is a very sad state of affairs. Who knows - by valuing the arts subjects more, children and young people might be more interested in learning about other things.

I'm a retired teacher too Foxygloves and my pension is nowhere near what my partner's will be when he eventually retires. I'm not claiming it's fair (neither would he), but he's a professor at a Russell Group uni, is top of his field in the country and will be 68 when he retires. Nevertheless, his pension isn't 75% of his salary and his pension pot is notional - he doesn't have access to the £1,000,000+ in it. Public service pensions don't work like private pension pots.

That article sounds like Spectator sour grapes - I wonder what they think about one of their ex-employees earning over a £1,000,000 for a few after dinner speeches, while still drawing his MP salary?

biglouis

I gave up maths at 14 (hated the maths teacher) but I did do bookkeeping so I know how to run a a balance sheet for my business.

I am constantly amazed at the so-called business people on Dragon's Den who appear not to understand the difference between turnover, gross and net profit.

Everyone should be able to balance their household or personal accounts.

Everybody should be able to understand the maths in everyday news articles too.

Balancing household and personal accounts is hardly rocket science.

I agree with all you say maizie did. The rote learning of tables etc were the log books in our heads. We could do arithmetic quickly and mental arithmetic accurately. When I went to Grammar school I had a selection of maths teachers the best was really the Physics teacher. He broke everything down into small pieces and you learned them backwards then you could apply them.
Others were so clever at maths themselves,we had one who wrote on the boards with one hand and rubbed it off with the other before we had time to digest it.
Maths just like literacy is a special needs subject but it takes good patient teachers to show how to do it. As others have said recruitment of Maths teachers is down and then it all comes back to class discipline and the right pay to recruit them.

BlueBelle

Exactly Callistemon what I m trying to say is if basic maths has not been achieved by 16 it won’t be achieved in two extra years that the kids don’t want to be sitting at a desk
A better idea would be go to work …construction, factory, shop whatever and do one day a week achieving what extra maths is considered needed
A levels, college, Uni is wonderful for those that want it but don’t knock kids that leave school without higher achievements but go on to have good useful careers
There is many much needed jobs where we are madly short of workers

Who said anything about uni or even maths at a higher conceptual level? Job-related/practical maths sounds like a great idea, but it is still based on basic skills, which should not be beyond somebody who has had a minimum of twelve years at school.

What a truly stupid opening post.
Maths is increasingly important in the modern world; this is not an attempt to blame a faltering economy on poor maths skills but a desire from one who has undoubted exceptional abilities in the maths field to improve the attitude to and ability of the current population.
As one who was/is poor at maths I lament my lack of skills; I managed well at primary and early secondary level but was confounded by algebra, geometry and statistics.
I taught maths at primary level but was always sympathetic to the low attainers; they needed so much more explanation and practice to grasp new concepts and insufficient time is allowed for that with widespread mixed-ability classes. My (simple) theory is that mathematicians spot patterns, sequences etc and move seamlessly from stage to stage, and cannot see how difficult it is for those who cannot do make the connection. But they can learn.
People who are good at maths do not flock into teaching as there are so many more careers available where they can use their skills, but I am glad that the problem is being recognised and hopefully addressed.