Apparently it is our fault that the economy is such rubbish because we can’t add up

Cabbie21 I agree that this will almost certainly never happen, unless the idea is to deliver lessons online via apps (which wouldn't surprise me).

Nevertheless, I don't agree with some of your post. All young people currently have to stay in some form of education/training until 18. They're not following the same courses and there's no reason why they would all need to follow the same maths course. Some would do A level, while others could do statistics and others could do practical courses related to apprenticeships. Almost everybody needs some level of maths to function in today's society.

The argument about some young people being "academic" is a red herring. They needn't be forced to understand calculus, but the kind of maths which people use in a practical way. For example, builders use maths to calculate how much building material they need, anybody running a small business needs to be able to do basic accounting, people in general need to be able to understand concepts such as percentage and average to have any understanding of current affairs.

ElderBerry4

growstuff

I agree with volver. There is such a thing as dyscalculia, but it's relatively rare and has little to do with the joking about being bad at maths.

Around 1 in 10 has dyslexia.
At least 1 in 20 has dyscalculia.
The latter figure may be far higher because by comparison dyscalculia is usually under-reported, under-researched, and goes underdiagnosed.

Do you have evidence for that claim, please?

I agree Grandma70s - I was able to the same as you! I learned my tables well and understood fractions, decimals, angles, geometry and some basic algebra but at 14 when we started doing logarithms and more complicated things, I was simply not interested- I found it all tedious and boring. Whereas literature and languages were magic to me. Five of us went to the Head and asked to give up Maths and do Greek instead. We had cleared it with the Classics teacher beforehand. She agreed and we were so grateful. At A level I did Latin French and German - all languages have been intensely interesting to me all my life. The 5 of us all did reasonably well - 2 became Heads of schools, 2 became doctors and one became a Fellow at Girton College Cambridge . None of us had Maths O Level. It was possible to do this before the National Curriculum and for the 5 of us, was a most sensible decision. Who is really going to work hard at something they have absolutely no interest in?

Maths was my favourite subject....

Strictly speaking the majority of people only need arithmetic.
➕➖➗✖️* % * Fractions illustrated by pies (division according to number of people wanting a piece!)

I did achieve GCE Maths but although I got a degree and a PGCE, I never studied Maths again: it seemed too theoretical and unconnected to daily life. However in my 40s, in order to run the financial aspects of my husband's business, I went to college and learned bookkeeping and payroll. I also learned that it was not shameful to use a calculator!
I can't see how an apparent lack of maths ability has ruined the economy and I wonder what exactly he thinks that 16-18 year olds should learn. For many of us, a good grounding in basic addition, subtraction, division and multiplication is sufficient.

This is Sunak's second attempt at throwing this dead cat on the table. All pupils should have a good level of literacy and numeracy when they leave school - they need at least to be able to work out how long it will take them to pay back their student loans. The kind of maths Sunak is talking about is very different and not for everyone. For this, he needs to recruit the highest quality maths teachers. Perhaps he should apply his mathematical brain to working out how he will fund these teachers.

What kind of maths is Sunak talking about? As far as I know, he hasn't given any details.

Coco51

Strictly speaking the majority of people only need arithmetic.
➕➖➗✖️* % * Fractions illustrated by pies (division according to number of people wanting a piece!)

I disagree. They also need skills in interpreting statistics.

montymops

I agree Grandma70s - I was able to the same as you! I learned my tables well and understood fractions, decimals, angles, geometry and some basic algebra but at 14 when we started doing logarithms and more complicated things, I was simply not interested- I found it all tedious and boring. Whereas literature and languages were magic to me. Five of us went to the Head and asked to give up Maths and do Greek instead. We had cleared it with the Classics teacher beforehand. She agreed and we were so grateful. At A level I did Latin French and German - all languages have been intensely interesting to me all my life. The 5 of us all did reasonably well - 2 became Heads of schools, 2 became doctors and one became a Fellow at Girton College Cambridge . None of us had Maths O Level. It was possible to do this before the National Curriculum and for the 5 of us, was a most sensible decision. Who is really going to work hard at something they have absolutely no interest in?

Many people work everyday at jobs in which they have absolutely no interest. Maybe it should be seen as a life skill.

growstuff

Coco51

Strictly speaking the majority of people only need arithmetic.
➕➖➗✖️* % * Fractions illustrated by pies (division according to number of people wanting a piece!)

I disagree. They also need skills in interpreting statistics.

And reading graphs. I wish people could learn to read graphs.

My mum had dyscalculia. She couldn’t add up at all, couldn’t work out change and at school failed every single maths test from the start. She was extremely good with words , history, geography, art etc. We used to laugh at how bad she was at maths ( I have never,ever come across anyone that bad all my life ) and didn’t know it was actually something diagnosable.

OK, at the risk of offending people.

Not everybody who is bad at counting has dyscalculia.

Just like how not everyone who has problems with reading is dyslexic. And not everybody who lets their attention wander has ADHD. And not everyone who likes order in their lives is autistic.

It is depressing to read so many anti maths posts but it is anti Tory really and as one of the despised party members, that although I too was poor at Maths I always know who will pick out a news item that so many Grans will nod their heads to, WhiteWaterMark 2 always wins the medal.
In South Australia where I did my school exams, I could cope well with arithmetic and like all people of advanced years my times tables were taught like a religious chorus and were drilled daily. I still know them off by heart as many of us do. However, algebra and geometry were just a mystery to me, so as you were not allowed into uni without maths I had to get an exemption by my teachers supporting my application. Even doing my higher degree at LSE I had to get a tutor to get past the more advanced statistic. I was offered a job at the LSE actually teaching stats to undergrads but I turned it down out of shame and fear that I would let myself down! So Rishi is right but we need inspiring people oriented teachers who can inspire students with a love for maths that so many of us lack.

Yes, Rishi we get your love of maths but we have very few good maths teachers and we need to recruit more and as kids are bored and feel they do not get it, we have to inspire students. Not an easy problem to solve and while all of us who were teachers were great at the job, just as in every walk of life there are teachers who should never have pursued such a demanding job either because they were as idle as the day is long or just could not handle the art of gripping the students attention in the classroom.
I understand your frustration with Rishi’s statement but we do need to push maths to the centre of learning. I do regret my own imablity to grasp the subject

growstuff

What kind of maths is Sunak talking about? As far as I know, he hasn't given any details.

Obviously the kind the Government is no good at.
(Was that grammatical 🤔)

Although you don't need to be brilliant at Maths to study Economics.

nanna8

My mum had dyscalculia. She couldn’t add up at all, couldn’t work out change and at school failed every single maths test from the start. She was extremely good with words , history, geography, art etc. We used to laugh at how bad she was at maths ( I have never,ever come across anyone that bad all my life ) and didn’t know it was actually something diagnosable.

I have also come across pupils with genuine dyscalculia - maybe half a dozen in a long teaching career. A friend's husband has it; he can't read a railway timetable and work out how long a journey will take.

However, I do not believe that weaknesses in maths are often caused by dyscalculia. Something goes wrong with teaching/learning or the relationship with the teacher and pupils do what they always do, which is to blame something, in this case some innate lack of ability in maths. It's supported by what Sunak calls an "anti-maths mindset". It's almost cool not to be to good at maths because it's only something for the nerdy geeks anyway.

Any compulsory maths after GCSE level should be practical maths, how to run your own finances, mortgages etc. Leaving students to specialise in their own choices for A levels and above. No amount of compulsory maths would have ever improved my basic skills, I never got the hang of calculus, trigonometry etc no matter how much it was explained to me. But I would most certainly have appreciated learning the ins and outs of personal finances.

Callistemon21

growstuff

What kind of maths is Sunak talking about? As far as I know, he hasn't given any details.

Obviously the kind the Government is no good at.
(Was that grammatical 🤔)

Although you don't need to be brilliant at Maths to study Economics.

It depends! Economics at degree level can be studied as a BA or BSc. A BSc does require a high level in maths - not that Sunak has one.

missdeke

Any compulsory maths after GCSE level should be practical maths, how to run your own finances, mortgages etc. Leaving students to specialise in their own choices for A levels and above. No amount of compulsory maths would have ever improved my basic skills, I never got the hang of calculus, trigonometry etc no matter how much it was explained to me. But I would most certainly have appreciated learning the ins and outs of personal finances.

If I were on the working party, that's exactly what I would recommend. I bet Sunak can't do higher level calculus or trigonometry either.

However, I'd go further than understanding personal finances. I would want to teach the maths needed for everyday number literacy. It's hardly possible to pick up any newspaper (or read it online) without coming across some form of statistics.

Maths describes how the universe works.

Economics is a made up thing that people use to try to justify any and all kinds of decisions about how they run the country.

Maybe I'm just biased

You used to have to be good at maths to cast a horoscope. That didn't make horoscopes reliable though.

Callistemon21

growstuff

What kind of maths is Sunak talking about? As far as I know, he hasn't given any details.

Obviously the kind the Government is no good at.
(Was that grammatical 🤔)

Although you don't need to be brilliant at Maths to study Economics.

Oh! I think the government is very good at maths - that's how it manages to hoodwink the people who really don't understand the stats.

volver3

Maths describes how the universe works.

Economics is a made up thing that people use to try to justify any and all kinds of decisions about how they run the country.

Maybe I'm just biased

You used to have to be good at maths to cast a horoscope. That didn't make horoscopes reliable though.

I've been told you have to be good at probability to be a good gambler too.

Red letter moment for me. I agree with Volver. Because she is correct. Without maths we could not function. It is a matter of envy for me. I just wish I worked harder to understand maths and that I had experienced being taught by decent and lit up teachers.

Annie1 😉

The teacher we had who taught the 'new maths' back in the 60s really didn't fully understand it herself. The result was that many of us did the certificate of proficiency in arithmetic instead of O level maths. That was pretty useful and helps with everyday finances etc. We had to rote learn our multiplication tables by age 9. They're still stuck firmly in my head.