Dominic Raab

growstuff

Maizie I'm not sure that's absolutely true. My grandfather made it to the top of the civil service tree and he worked in the same department from 1919 until the 1960s. I currently have other relatives who have worked in the same department for decades.

I'm not altogether sure, but it was a very long time ago.

I'm reporting on what Professor Chapman told us in the '90s and what Dunt has more recently deduced, after extensive interviews and research.

But surely we've always known that they start as generalists. And we get situations like the setting up of the Department for Exiting the EU where huge numbers were drafted into a completely unprecedented new department.

Seriously ronib the dossiers that I keep here are nothing like the minimal paperwork I kept in the UK. The IT systems are light years behind. If you need medical attention you go through the treatment system with minimal delay; the paperwork takes ages.
Opening a small business in the UK took my DH three days, here it took six months to even begin to get through the paperwork.
When we got our new car last year we signed over 200 pieces of paper (trade-in plus lease plus insurance).
There is no comparison.

growstuff

Maizie I'm not sure that's absolutely true. My grandfather made it to the top of the civil service tree and he worked in the same department from 1919 until the 1960s. I currently have other relatives who have worked in the same department for decades.

That will be their choice though. You can apply at anytime to work in another department. However those with decades of experience on a particular subject are gold mines, resulting in what appears intractable problems easily solved. Never underestimate experience.

Mamie from your description of the French system, it doesn’t sound all that different from the Uk … lofty individuals, endless paperwork, IT systems not upto scratch, disenchanted population.
Back to the drawing board.

Any point reading the conclusions of the Fulton report?

Maizie I'm not sure that's absolutely true. My grandfather made it to the top of the civil service tree and he worked in the same department from 1919 until the 1960s. I currently have other relatives who have worked in the same department for decades.

Mamie

ronib

ww2,Lord Maude suggested it was the French system and it might have some advantages over our way of administration.

I couldn't quite understand the difference between what Francis Maude was suggesting in the French system and a UK SpAD to be honest.

There isn't one - not in any meaningful way anyway.

ronib

Growstuff well clearly the civil service won the battle with Dominic Cummings. Definitely out in the wilderness.

I think it was Johnson (and Mrs Johnson) who won the battle with Cummings.

ronib

Mamie whatever the difference between French and USA systems and ours, there’s no harm in trying to understand how to improve administration in the Uk. We need to start from the position that we don’t have to stay with the current regime.

Well yes, but would you honestly want to start by emulating l'administration française? A lofty bunch of refined intellectuals at the top, a system mired in endless paperwork, frustrating IT "systems" and a somewhat less than positive view from the population. It is true that it does provide a lot of employment for a lot of people.
Perhaps Francis Maude should come here and try it for a bit.

ronib

ww2,Lord Maude suggested it was the French system and it might have some advantages over our way of administration.

I think I would be more inclined to consider the conclusions of a neutral analyst of CS/ministerial relations, and the CS in general, than those of a former tory minister. I don't think that Maude is an objective voice on this.

Mamie whatever the difference between French and USA systems and ours, there’s no harm in trying to understand how to improve administration in the Uk. We need to start from the position that we don’t have to stay with the current regime.

Growstuff well clearly the civil service won the battle with Dominic Cummings. Definitely out in the wilderness.

ronib

ww2,Lord Maude suggested it was the French system and it might have some advantages over our way of administration.

I couldn't quite understand the difference between what Francis Maude was suggesting in the French system and a UK SpAD to be honest.

ww2,Lord Maude suggested it was the French system and it might have some advantages over our way of administration.

growstuff

Mamie That article by Adam Boulton more or less sums up what I think about Raab. Thank you for posting it. Boulton isn't known for being "left wing" or "woke".

Excellent article, Mamie, thanks for the link.

This:

Raab boldly asserts “the British public expect ministers to exercise rigorous oversight over officials to prevent democratic mandates being unpicked, raise the game of underperforming parts of government, and prevent Whitehall from squandering taxpayers’ money.” This is a familiar complaint from ideologues who find themselves in government. Perhaps most associated with the late Tony Benn, it implies that ministers are appointed as inquisitors, empowered by an election win to impose their will on the nation on everything while scourging the civil service. That has never been their job, let alone what “the British people” asked them to do. They should manage their area of responsibility in the best interests of all, subject to the law and the will of parliament, and with the assistance of impartial civil servants.

This is how it is supposed to work and I think that some of our right wing posters should take note before jumping into the anti 'woke' civil servants narrative that the extreme right of the tory party are pushing.

Of course, there are flaws everywhere. For a start,the MPs promoted to ministerial positions are rarely those with any expertise at all in the matters their department deals with. How well they master any understanding of this is down to the individual. And of course, they are dependent on the department's civil servants to brief them.

Then they have very little time in which to put their ideas into operation because they rarely stay in post for long and they feel they have to make their mark successfully in the hopes of future promotion.

On the other hand, civil servants are 'generalists' and may move from department to department in pursuit of promotion to higher grades. It appears that 'expertise' is not prioritised. While the senior civil servants in a department may have been there for some time and acquired a depth of knowledge, the more junior staff may be in a similar situation to their ministers.

It all looks like a recipe for conflict and ineffectiveness to me...

I'm speaking second hand, of course, having never been a CS, but one of my politics lecturers at Uni had been a researcher working on the Fulton Enquiry into the CS in the 1960s and this is much the state of affairs that he was pointing out 30+ years ago. (Fulton's recommendations were never implemented...)

Mamie That article by Adam Boulton more or less sums up what I think about Raab. Thank you for posting it. Boulton isn't known for being "left wing" or "woke".

Primrose53

Casdon

Primrose53

Casdon

Primrose53

And the biggest bully of the lot, Bercow is keeping a very low profile.

Probably because he’s no longer an MP…..

Better known as the Speaker of The House of Commons and a massive bully.

Was. No longer an MP since 2019. I’m not sure what you mean, do you expect an ex MP to raise his head and say ‘I did the same’ four years after he left the job?

Bercow was a proper bully, shouting, swearing, even throwing and smashing things. Raab was not accused of any of these things. Gordon Brown was another person well known for throwing stuff around and bullying. Different league altogether from Raab.

Seems to me that nowadays you only have to look at someone the wrong way and you are accused of being a bully.

So what you’re saying is that Raab should not face the consequences of his behaviour because in the past other ministers have behaved the same way. You need to give your head a wobble. Bullying is not, and never was acceptable. Condemning people who are taking appropriate action, and trying to set standards for now and the future is abhorrent.

Whitewavemark2

ronib

Lord Maude is suggesting a reappraisal of the way a minister and permanent secretary are made to work together. The whole way of thinking in the Uk is in a marriage, if you don’t get along with your partner, change them. At present, a minister can’t divorce his PS even if it’s no fault!

So you prefer the American way?

We already have "political" civil servants. They're called SpAds and their number has increased over the last decade. Dominic Cummings was a SpAd and notoriously was in conflict with the permanent civil servants and campaigned to change the way they work.

Full article here:
reaction.life/raab-unpleasant-behaviour-is-a-symptom-of-his-mediocrity/
I love the quote of Clement Atlee dismissing a Minister with, "not up to it".

Primrose53 It seems to me that you have no experience of psychological bullying. In which case, you've been lucky.

Raab was difficult to work with, a bully and entirely ineffectual as a minister.

ronib

Lord Maude is suggesting a reappraisal of the way a minister and permanent secretary are made to work together. The whole way of thinking in the Uk is in a marriage, if you don’t get along with your partner, change them. At present, a minister can’t divorce his PS even if it’s no fault!

So you prefer the American way?

Casdon

Primrose53

Casdon

Primrose53

And the biggest bully of the lot, Bercow is keeping a very low profile.

Probably because he’s no longer an MP…..

Better known as the Speaker of The House of Commons and a massive bully.

Was. No longer an MP since 2019. I’m not sure what you mean, do you expect an ex MP to raise his head and say ‘I did the same’ four years after he left the job?

Bercow was a proper bully, shouting, swearing, even throwing and smashing things. Raab was not accused of any of these things. Gordon Brown was another person well known for throwing stuff around and bullying. Different league altogether from Raab.

Seems to me that nowadays you only have to look at someone the wrong way and you are accused of being a bully.

Lord Maude is suggesting a reappraisal of the way a minister and permanent secretary are made to work together. The whole way of thinking in the Uk is in a marriage, if you don’t get along with your partner, change them. At present, a minister can’t divorce his PS even if it’s no fault!

Allsorts - how do you explain that other ministers after him seem to work fine with the very same staff?