Zionism and Palestine

Progressives get such a left wing echo chamber view as to how Palestine Arabs in Israel really feel. They reality is far more mixed and nuanced. There are 100s of interviews with Jews and Palestinians on this site. Here is just one. Take time to explore the variety of opinions articulated by the ordinary citizenry of both sides on the site.

youtu.be/_EwEhQtDk-4

Pooter

Jews were living in Israel before the Babylonians. Before Rome was founded by the Romans, and Athens by the Ancient Greeks.

Utterly absurd and shameful to label their return using the slur of "colonialism".

Definition of colonialism
Colonialism is defined as “control by one power over a dependent area or people.” It occurs when one nation subjugates another, conquering its population and exploiting it, often while forcing its own language and cultural values upon its people.

It wasn't the return which was colonialism. It was the Nakba and the acquisition of territories by forcible ejection and settlement since. Or are you saying that hasn't happened?

Why should any territory taken by force not be 'under threat'?

You can say that about so many regions of the world!

Jews were living in Israel before the Babylonians. Before Rome was founded by the Romans, and Athens by the Ancient Greeks.

Utterly absurd and shameful to label their return using the slur of "colonialism".

maddyone

The fiction is that the Palestinians only have rocks and stones. They don’t, they have rockets and guns. That’s truth.
Jewish people have lived in today’s Israel for thousands of years. It was called Judaea thousands of years ago. It was regularly invaded by other ‘tribes.’ Presumably these were peoples from countries we now know as Iran, Syria, Egypt etc. The Jews were hated thousands of years ago and this continues to this day. In 70 AD the Romans expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, and in the centuries that followed, there were many further expulsions of Jewish people from Judea. Mainly they went to Spain and then gradually moved across Europe. They were often made to live outside city walls and they were persecuted and expelled throughout history. Some Jews remained living in the area now known as Israel. Israel has been persecuted by the surrounding states since 1948, in particular during the six day war. It is still surrounded by hostile states.
There needs to be a solution, but as long as Israel feels threatened there can’t be peace sadly. I can’t see an end to this situation any time soon.
And no, the situation in Israel is not like Ukraine, despite some people stating it is. It is actually far more complex, and the history goes back thousands of years, and has been complicated by the Holocaust (along with the PolPot regime, probably the worst example of genocide known to man, and absolutely will inform Israel’s position) and is about the survival of the state of Israel. Russia is not under any threat from anywhere.

The history does go back thousands of years and the Palestinian people welcomed Jewish settlers fleeing from pogroms in Europe from the 1800s. They lived peacefully together. Jews were not persecuted in Palestine, nor were Christians. The Jewish population increased considerably from 1850 to 1931 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

The fiction is that the Palestinians only have rocks and stones. They don’t, they have rockets and guns. That’s truth.
Jewish people have lived in today’s Israel for thousands of years. It was called Judaea thousands of years ago. It was regularly invaded by other ‘tribes.’ Presumably these were peoples from countries we now know as Iran, Syria, Egypt etc. The Jews were hated thousands of years ago and this continues to this day. In 70 AD the Romans expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, and in the centuries that followed, there were many further expulsions of Jewish people from Judea. Mainly they went to Spain and then gradually moved across Europe. They were often made to live outside city walls and they were persecuted and expelled throughout history. Some Jews remained living in the area now known as Israel. Israel has been persecuted by the surrounding states since 1948, in particular during the six day war. It is still surrounded by hostile states.
There needs to be a solution, but as long as Israel feels threatened there can’t be peace sadly. I can’t see an end to this situation any time soon.
And no, the situation in Israel is not like Ukraine, despite some people stating it is. It is actually far more complex, and the history goes back thousands of years, and has been complicated by the Holocaust (along with the PolPot regime, probably the worst example of genocide known to man, and absolutely will inform Israel’s position) and is about the survival of the state of Israel. Russia is not under any threat from anywhere.

Pooter

If the Palestinian supporters on here had to live in a Middle East county, for most only one would be bearable for you in a day to day level - and that country is Israel. In no other neighbouring country would you have the political and social freedoms that you enjoy in the UK. The Palestinian Territories don't tolerate ordinary citizen dissent like the UK and Israel do. That's why you see huge protests in Israel against the constitutional changes proposed by the Israeli right. It's democracy in action and doesn't happen in a peaceful fashion anywhere else in the region.

Unless of course the Palestinian supporters were of Palestinian descent then they presumably would be treated like all other Palestinians and subjected to the same apartheid treatment. And strangely enough some of us find that unacceptable. Regardless of how we personally would be treated we support and campaign for human rights for everyone.

If the Palestinian supporters on here had to live in a Middle East county, for most only one would be bearable for you in a day to day level - and that country is Israel. In no other neighbouring country would you have the political and social freedoms that you enjoy in the UK. The Palestinian Territories don't tolerate ordinary citizen dissent like the UK and Israel do. That's why you see huge protests in Israel against the constitutional changes proposed by the Israeli right. It's democracy in action and doesn't happen in a peaceful fashion anywhere else in the region.

'Returning to your 3,000 year old historic homeland has nothing to do with "colonialism". The Arabs are not the historic indigenous people of the Levantine, they were invaders from Arabia.'

yes, it does. Geography, maps and political borders have moved around hugely in 3000 years, all over the world.

So you go and illegally invade land that does not belong to you, put your settlements there and encourage massive number of births- and then say 'too late, ours now?. Really? Is this how it works in your world???

Just keep talking, and you are making the points some of us are trying to make better than anyone of us.

maddyone

silverlining48

Last year 150 Palestinians were killed by Israeli troops while 30 Israelis were killed by Palestinians. Quite an imbalance. Israel has power and weapons and Palestinians have righteous anger, stones and tyres.
When 5 times as many Palestinians die, reports of 5 injured pedestrians, awful that it is for them, is not really on the same scale.
Surely most sensible people just want to live in peace with neighbours, on an equal basis, and for the Palestinians this is just not going to happen, The two state solution is dead in the water because land grabbing has been encouraged and continues.

The Palestinians certainly have fire power. Pretending they only have stones and rocks is disingenuous. Only a couple of weeks ago a British mother and two of her daughters were killed by terrorists in Israel, in Tel Aviv I think. They were shot to death in their car as they were about to go on holiday for Passover. Also rockets are regularly fired into Jewish areas by the Palestians. Iran and Syria arm the Palestians. The Palestians also make some of their own arms. Presumably the materials are supplied by other countries, probably Iran.
Let’s have truth, not fiction!

Here's the truth. Taken from Amnesty International's report
Israeli forces have killed and injured thousands of Palestinian civilians in the OPT since 1967, often in circumstances suggesting that the killings were systematic, unlawful and arbitrary, and with near total impunity. Recent decades have seen a mounting toll of deaths and injuries of Palestinians as a result of shooting or other violence by Israeli soldiers outside the context of armed conflict in the OPT. In Israel, too, there has been a pattern of killings of Palestinian citizens of Israel in law enforcement activities incircumstances that indicate that the killings were unlawful.
According to B’Tselem, between September 2000 and February 2017 Israeli forces killed 4,868 Palestiniansin the OPT, including 1,793 children, outside the context of armed conflict.1457 Law enforcement activities in the OPT, such as supressing protests, carrying out raids to arrest people, enforcing travel and movement restrictions, and conducting search operations, stem from Israel’s administration of occupied territory
The killing of a woman and her children is a regrettable and tragic incident. The slaughter of over 1000 children is totally unjustifiable and can only be described as state sponsored murder.

The truth is, that massive areas of Palestine have been forcibly taken by Israel since 1947, illegally, by force and by deliberate destruction. THAT is the truth.

Are you saying that Ukraine should not show intransigeance? How can Palestinians accept the brutal annexation of huge parts of their own land by a foreing power?

What do you think of Starmers view and he is likely to be next PM that Israel is not an apartheid state? Despite what amnesty international say. Seems the British Board of Deputies who Starmer follows and some in his party are Friends of Israel too follow what Israel government want. Not all Jews are the same not all Jews follow BBD Lots stand up for anti racism and Palistine. In Starmers Labour Party Jews that support the Palestinians are thrown out of the party.

Returning to your 3,000 year old historic homeland has nothing to do with "colonialism". The Arabs are not the historic indigenous people of the Levantine, they were invaders from Arabia.

More than 70% of Israeli Jews were born there and so are as legitimate inhabitants in Israel as the blacks and Asians born in the UK are legitimate nationals of Britain. Do you believe British born Blacks and Asians should similarly be expelled?

Jews that are descendants of those arrived from Europe and America after WW2 are a minority of the Israeli Jewish population. More are the descendants of those Jews who were expelled from the Middle East and North Africa after 1948. (Look up the demographics of Israeli Jews on Wikipedia.)

silverlining48

Last year 150 Palestinians were killed by Israeli troops while 30 Israelis were killed by Palestinians. Quite an imbalance. Israel has power and weapons and Palestinians have righteous anger, stones and tyres.
When 5 times as many Palestinians die, reports of 5 injured pedestrians, awful that it is for them, is not really on the same scale.
Surely most sensible people just want to live in peace with neighbours, on an equal basis, and for the Palestinians this is just not going to happen, The two state solution is dead in the water because land grabbing has been encouraged and continues.

The Palestinians certainly have fire power. Pretending they only have stones and rocks is disingenuous. Only a couple of weeks ago a British mother and two of her daughters were killed by terrorists in Israel, in Tel Aviv I think. They were shot to death in their car as they were about to go on holiday for Passover. Also rockets are regularly fired into Jewish areas by the Palestians. Iran and Syria arm the Palestians. The Palestians also make some of their own arms. Presumably the materials are supplied by other countries, probably Iran.
Let’s have truth, not fiction!

Sadly, I think that sums up the situation Grantanow and unless there's a willingness from both sides to find a peaceful solution, there isn't going to be one.

Both sides are intransigent as to their minimum terms for a peaceful solution and it suits politicians on both sides to maintain the status quo in the interest of their own retention of power in my opinion. There is obviously no going back to former times. No solution is possible.

Fleurpepper

Just between 2008 and 2020- 5590 Palestinians have been killed, compared to 251 Israelis. The retaliation for the 5 killed in the car attack mentionned above has been 35- and massive destruction of houses and more.

not to mention photojournalists and aid workers

Israel, like every other national power that can do so, colonises and victimises another weaker society.

Socialism and democracy are the only safeguards that the weaker community has against forces of right wing nationalism which includes the myth of Zion.

Just between 2008 and 2020- 5590 Palestinians have been killed, compared to 251 Israelis. The retaliation for the 5 killed in the car attack mentionned above has been 35- and massive destruction of houses and more.

Expansion and the expulsion of Palestinians from their own land started in 1948, and has never stopped since. In the most cruel, inhumane, disgusting and murderous of ways- and the current far right Governement intends to make it official now- and totally illegally.

What is different with what Putin is doing in Ukraine and other countries?

''Benjamin Netanyahu's incoming hard-line Israeli government put West Bank settlement expansion at the top of its priority list on Wednesday, vowing to legalize dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory as part of its coalition deal with ultranationalist allies.''

now THAT is terrorism and an act of war.

Here are the 2022 UN General Assembly critical resolutions on different countries. (Previous years are similar). Question: Do you really believe that Israel is worse in it's behaviour than all those other countries listed put together? Or is there an anti-Israel (ie anti-Jewish) agenda at play here?

North Korea 1

Afghanistan 1

Venezuela O

Myanmar 1

Lebanon O

Pakistan O

Hamas O

Algeria O

C. Turkey O

Russia 6

China O

Qatar O

Saudi O

** Israel 15

Cuba O

Syria 1

Iraq O

Iran 1

U.S. 1

'You shouldn't be romanticising their behaviour.'

r o m a n t i c i s i n g - did you actually think, believe and write this. Have you lookd at a map of expansion of the Jewish State- forcibly taking huge territories that belonged to Palestine, the destruction of villages, towns, homes, orchards and olive groves centuries old, the deliberate pollution and sewerage from new towns poured onto those territories. How many Palestinians have died? And you say 'romanticising'

You are proving our point so so much better than we could ever do.

Hardly romanticising!