Zionism and Palestine

Why should any territory taken by force not be 'under threat'?

Pooter

Jews were living in Israel before the Babylonians. Before Rome was founded by the Romans, and Athens by the Ancient Greeks.

Utterly absurd and shameful to label their return using the slur of "colonialism".

Definition of colonialism
Colonialism is defined as “control by one power over a dependent area or people.” It occurs when one nation subjugates another, conquering its population and exploiting it, often while forcing its own language and cultural values upon its people.

It wasn't the return which was colonialism. It was the Nakba and the acquisition of territories by forcible ejection and settlement since. Or are you saying that hasn't happened?

Progressives get such a left wing echo chamber view as to how Palestine Arabs in Israel really feel. They reality is far more mixed and nuanced. There are 100s of interviews with Jews and Palestinians on this site. Here is just one. Take time to explore the variety of opinions articulated by the ordinary citizenry of both sides on the site.

youtu.be/_EwEhQtDk-4

The only opinion that is going to change Israel is the US the rest of the world is whistling in the wind, neighbouring Arab countries are paid to leave Israel alone. Within Israel the fundamentalist religions hold the balance of power, in the same way other Arab nations have similar islamic regimes, there is no reconciling either.

While the Jewish lobby holds sway in the US the hostile relationship will continue.

"It wasn't the return which was colonialism. It was the Nakba and the acquisition of territories by forcible ejection and settlement since. Or are you saying that hasn't happened?".

What about the expulsion of 800,000 Jews from Muslim countries in the ME and North Africa? Should the descendants of white settlers leave America and Australia?

But to stress the positive, you do seem to be saying that you agree that Jews do have the right to live in their historic homeland, and within secure borders? If so that makes you too a "Zionist". Unfortunately Hamas in its constitution denies Jews that right, it wants instead to "drive them into the sea". That's why it's spent the last 75 years attacking Israel in one form or another.

And Israel has attacked them right back

"49Fleurpepper

Why should any territory taken by force not be 'under threat'?".

That makes pretty much every conflict in history still live, including all post war settlements. 100s of countries were originally created by force.

What in your mind makes Israel worse than other countries? The history of the Middle East, and indeed the wider world, is riven by regional, border conflicts, none of which concern you in the same way. A few hundred miles to the north 600,000 Syrians have been killed by the Syrian government. A few hundred miles to the East, the atrocities of Yemen. And then theres Aghanistan, and what's happening in Iran. I seldom if ever see posts by left progressives about any of those, all though all are objectively far worse in terms of unjustifiable suffering of minority or marginalised groups.

Israel is micro-observed in terms of its actions and shortcomings, the others macro-ignored. I wonder what the engine driving that duality is?

In 1517, the Ottoman Empire conquered the region, ruling it until the British conquered it in 1917. The region was ruled under the British Mandate for Palestine until 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was proclaimed in part of the ancient land of Israel.

Now that was a very long time ago!

Tragically, land would have never been given for a Jewish State had the abominable Holocaust not happened. That expansion and taking huge swathes of Palestine illegally, more and more- was never ever what was envisaged. This is illegal theft and worse than colonialism- and as said above, the Jewis lobb is so strong in the US that they continue to close a blind eye to it all, Democrats or Republicans.

How one people that have suffered so much, in the most abominable of circumstances- can use it as an excuse to do what they have been doing since 1947- is just beyond me.

Using labels like 'colonial' or 'apartheid' or harking back to ancient history is completely unhelpful as is arguing about the degree to which either side is armed. Intransigence on both sides (fuelled by religious attitudes as well as self-promoting politicians) means there can be no peaceful solution.

There can be a solution IF Israel stick to the rules the land was given on .Ignoring UN resolutions for decades isn't right .

paddyann54

There can be a solution IF Israel stick to the rules the land was given on .Ignoring UN resolutions for decades isn't right .

Exactly, the expansion into Palestinian land has been massive, and totally illegal. Families have been encouraged to move there, and to have very large families- so they can say, ah well our children were born here, so you can't take our homes away. Talk about 'intransigeance'.

Spot on paddyann. Its amazing how people can't grasp this simple fact.

Question: "When was Palestine first created?

Answer: "In 1988 the Palestine National Council meeting in Algiers proclaimed the establishment of the State of Palestine". (Source: the United Nations.)

Palestine is a newly created country and was a deliberate and conscious creation solely in response to the re-establishment of a Jewish Israel in 1948. It's not an ancient historic country.

Pooter
Unfortunately there is an inability to understand the complexity of the situation in Israel. Many people see only one position, usually that is the position from the point of view of the Palestinians. They have probably never visited Israel, and do not understand that many Palestinians live peacefully in Israel with exactly the same rights as Israelis. However others are engaged in acts of appalling terrorism, apparently justified by the view that the Jews have stolen their land.

The views of some in the UK are entranced and will not change. Sadly this leads to the kind of racism seen only this week in the letter published by The Observer, written by Diane Abbott.

I believe the Jewish people deserve their own country to live in and that country is the one they lived in historically. Not having a homeland led to the Holocaust. Racism against Jewish people has not gone away and the consequence is the need to occupy their own homeland.

Fine. They have a homeland. No need to encroach so aggressively on another's homeland.

Aveline

Fine. They have a homeland. No need to encroach so aggressively on another's homeland.

Exactly- illegal, violent and very aggressive expansion, which was never ever what was intended by the rest of the world.

maddyone- please don't patronise us. All I said is discussed and confirmed with Israeli Jewish friends who spent all their life there- and have had to leave as they could no longer stand by what is happening to Palestinians, that they have witnessed personally for over 60 years. And because of the threats they have endured personally for their views.

And there is nothing racist about saying this or antisemitism.

I don’t see maddyone patronising anyone. She doesn’t share your view Fleurpepper, that’s not patronising, it’s having a different viewpoint. As for your Israeli Jewish friends, I have great respect for them. I also respect my Jewish friends who disapprove of the current Israeli government
I disapprove of my government in the UK. I protest and will vote the best way to stop them winning an election, which in my constituency means Labour.
The point about US power is well made. I was relieved when the US lobby supporting terrorists in Northern Ireland realised that’s what they were doing. 9/11 influenced that change. I’m nit suggesting that recur byt that the Americans review their support for the current Israeli govt

There are people working towards reconciliation. Yesterday was a day of hope for them maki.org.il/en/?p=30973

Iam64

I don’t see maddyone patronising anyone. She doesn’t share your view Fleurpepper, that’s not patronising, it’s having a different viewpoint. As for your Israeli Jewish friends, I have great respect for them. I also respect my Jewish friends who disapprove of the current Israeli government
I disapprove of my government in the UK. I protest and will vote the best way to stop them winning an election, which in my constituency means Labour.
The point about US power is well made. I was relieved when the US lobby supporting terrorists in Northern Ireland realised that’s what they were doing. 9/11 influenced that change. I’m nit suggesting that recur byt that the Americans review their support for the current Israeli govt

THAT is patronising!

Some of us have spent a lot of time trying to understand the issues from all angles- and with people who know, and who have been bullied and ostracised and threatened, including their children and grand-children, because of their disgust for what is being done to Palestinians. Violence they have often witnessed in person.

Sorry, my quote didn't copy. I meant this

'Unfortunately there is an inability to understand the complexity of the situation in Israel.'

Illegal expansion is not complex- it is illegal, and akin to genocide.

Well Fleurpepper, I acknowledge your position on the moral high ground, your superior knowledge. Much more Right than anyone else could hope to be

Iam64

Well Fleurpepper, I acknowledge your position on the moral high ground, your superior knowledge. Much more Right than anyone else could hope to be

Now that is ...

nonsense of the highest order.

Glorianny Thanks fir the clip, it brings a little bit of hope. Of course not everyone in Israel agrees with their government, any more than we agree with ours.

I think one of the things to recognise is that the occupied territories are being settled by a particular type of Jew. They are for the most part very traditional and very Zionist. I think there is in Israel the same sort of move towards secularity, as is found in many other countries. This of course would mean the Jewish state would become eventually secular, which is one reason the expansion relies on more traditional Jews.
The problem is of course that the concept of the Jewish state is then threatened by secular Jews, and Palestinians, as these would constitute a huge majority, so the easiest solution is never to give Palestinians equal representation and to continue repressing them.