Gransnet forums

News & politics

I fear the rise of National Conservatism

(284 Posts)
DaisyAnne Mon 24-Apr-23 11:12:25

I have disliked the direction the Conservatives have taken but this is such a stark reflection of the 1930s that I fear it.

Not heard of them? This New Statesman Podcast by Andrew Marr may help you understand who and what they are.

They are holding a conference next month (15 - 17 May). Speakers are to include Jacob Rees Mogg, Michael Gove, Suella Braverman and Danny Kruger. There will be lots of our Union flags, apparently. GB News also seems strongly represented.

Marr is a very knowledgeable man, so can give a much better explanation about where this Nationalist party has come from and why, than I can.

He does explain what the Labour Party are offering - a stronger state built on less centralisation - in reply to the perceived problems that have given the extreme right power around the world to revive nationalism. (He is going to do an analysis of the left in this series)

He also explains the roots of this party, as shown by its website nationalconservatism.org/ and summarises what this means to Rishi Sunak and to the left.

Please watch it before you reply, and don't just guess what it is about. We should both know and understand what this is about and where it is coming from.

growstuff Fri 28-Apr-23 13:43:40

Grany

See. The Labour Video Keir Starmer Doesn't Want you to See. From Double Down News on YouTube Conservative and Labour both want same things. Indistinguishable. America has a lot of influence in Britain with 12 thousand troops stationed here. Need change The establishment does not want change..So no change.

What exactly are you trying to achieve? Like many others, I'm appalled by the current Conservative government and its lurch to the right. In the current system, the only viable alternative is a Labour government. I'm not overly impressed with Starmer, but I think I can see what he's trying to do. If people within the Labour Party continually try to dissuade people, they'll end up returning the Conservatives or, even worse, persuading them to try somebody different such as National Conservatives.

Freya5 Fri 28-Apr-23 13:39:41

Grany

See. The Labour Video Keir Starmer Doesn't Want you to See. From Double Down News on YouTube Conservative and Labour both want same things. Indistinguishable. America has a lot of influence in Britain with 12 thousand troops stationed here. Need change The establishment does not want change..So no change.

We have had American troops based here since the 2nd WW. Attended some of their parties with FS hubby. Lovely people.
Why,do you think they're here to take over?
My big fear is Starmer and Co in charge. More of a likely scenario than the NC.

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 28-Apr-23 13:31:19

What are you on about Grany? What’s the relevance?

Grany Fri 28-Apr-23 13:27:51

See. The Labour Video Keir Starmer Doesn't Want you to See. From Double Down News on YouTube Conservative and Labour both want same things. Indistinguishable. America has a lot of influence in Britain with 12 thousand troops stationed here. Need change The establishment does not want change..So no change.

ronib Fri 28-Apr-23 12:32:57

Regular registration- subsidised £115
Conference sponsor £2500
Edmund Burke Foundation Founder £5000
Table x 5 x£2000
Table x 10 x £2000
Tickets for the conference lasting 3 days.
Probably available on YouTube? Looks like a fund raising event.
Not going.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 28-Apr-23 06:58:35

You can be “woke” if you vote conservative you know.

Being sympathetic towards the underdog is a human emotion it isn’t party political.

Katie59 Thu 27-Apr-23 20:51:16

MaizieD

Oh dear, sazzl. Such a litany of untruths and half truths.

Sazzl, just about covers most of the reasons why they voted leave the EU I will say no more.

MaizieD Thu 27-Apr-23 20:39:39

Oh dear, sazzl. Such a litany of untruths and half truths.

growstuff Thu 27-Apr-23 20:36:32

Germanshepherdsmum

Why do you think this is a left wing movement? Who are these woke lefties with wealth? Are we living on the same planet? Or are you one of the many who have difficulty distinguishing right and left?

Join me on Planet Zog! The weather's not too bad, but the food is rubbish! hmm

growstuff Thu 27-Apr-23 20:34:43

How exactly was the EU responsible for British workers being (allegedly) too lazy to work?

The rules on seeking work and unemployment benefit have always been a British responsibility.

PS. Good that you were so concerned about the exploitation of EU workers. Are you concerned about them now?

sazz1 Thu 27-Apr-23 20:13:17

In reply to houseplant queen I voted leave the EU. Why well several reasons
Farmers being paid to leave fields empty
Only being allowed to sell so much and then having to buy from EU countries
Lots of control over our laws and regulations especially in industry. Not including health and safety most of which were very beneficial
Imigrant workers families being paid benefits for x number of children who were in their own country to top up their parent's income.
I remember the butter mountain and milk we were forced to destroy as we had to buy from EU and had reached our quota. Not even allowed to donate it free to poor families with children who couldn't afford milk and butter. Will never forgive them for that.
Too many unemployed UK people with no intention of working and playing the system while we were expoiting EU unskilled workers. This doesn't include genuine sick or disabled people BTW.

Fleurpepper Thu 27-Apr-23 19:57:44

Katie59

Fleurpepper

Katie59 - there is wealth... and wealth. Of course it is nice to pass on fruits one one's labour to next generation (and the one after, in our case)- but there should be a cap.

Woke lefties - why is it rude to call Tories Brexit Gamons, but OK to say 'woke lefties'?

There is a cap, a couple is able to pass on nearly £1m before inheritance tax.

Woke Lefties - not my term but Volver is proud.

Yes, quite rightly so.

volver3 Thu 27-Apr-23 19:33:22

Isn't it funny that those reactionary ultra conservatives think that everybody thinks and behaves just like them? You know, selfish and thoughtless?

volver3 Thu 27-Apr-23 19:31:05

Woke: alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism;

Leftie: a subscriber to the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism;

Why wouldn't I be proud of that?

Its better than being a reactionary ultra conservative.

Katie59 Thu 27-Apr-23 19:26:32

Germanshepherdsmum

Why do you think this is a left wing movement? Who are these woke lefties with wealth? Are we living on the same planet? Or are you one of the many who have difficulty distinguishing right and left?

Woke Lefties are the successful university graduates Growstuff mentions that get well paid jobs and are are preaching that wealth should be distributed more fairly, no doubt except for their own wealth.

Absolutely nobody pays more tax than is due, they may well leave part of their wealth to a favourite charity but they do not pay it back to the government to use as they wish

I’m very firmly on planet earth and I know almost all will look after their own family first perpetuating inequality. Maybe you are the exception.

Katie59 Thu 27-Apr-23 19:08:57

Fleurpepper

Katie59 - there is wealth... and wealth. Of course it is nice to pass on fruits one one's labour to next generation (and the one after, in our case)- but there should be a cap.

Woke lefties - why is it rude to call Tories Brexit Gamons, but OK to say 'woke lefties'?

There is a cap, a couple is able to pass on nearly £1m before inheritance tax.

Woke Lefties - not my term but Volver is proud.

volver3 Thu 27-Apr-23 18:49:19

I'm with Kathy Burke.

I'm proud to be a woke leftie.

Fleurpepper Thu 27-Apr-23 18:46:06

Katie59 - there is wealth... and wealth. Of course it is nice to pass on fruits one one's labour to next generation (and the one after, in our case)- but there should be a cap.

Woke lefties - why is it rude to call Tories Brexit Gamons, but OK to say 'woke lefties'?

volver3 Thu 27-Apr-23 18:38:32

Katie59

The woke lefties are just as likely to retain wealth within their own families and their children will have all the advantages. Those are the exactly the virtue signalers that preach “woke” then do the opposite.

Any left wing movement has a problem, so many voters are now home owners, they are not going to vote for policies that stop them handing the fruits of their enterprise to the family.
There could of course be a violent socialist revolution that strips wealth from owners, thats not going to happen soon in the UK

Not everybody is selfish, Katie59.

Germanshepherdsmum Thu 27-Apr-23 18:02:11

Why do you think this is a left wing movement? Who are these woke lefties with wealth? Are we living on the same planet? Or are you one of the many who have difficulty distinguishing right and left?

Katie59 Thu 27-Apr-23 17:57:05

The woke lefties are just as likely to retain wealth within their own families and their children will have all the advantages. Those are the exactly the virtue signalers that preach “woke” then do the opposite.

Any left wing movement has a problem, so many voters are now home owners, they are not going to vote for policies that stop them handing the fruits of their enterprise to the family.
There could of course be a violent socialist revolution that strips wealth from owners, thats not going to happen soon in the UK

ronib Thu 27-Apr-23 16:58:49

Growstuff also in The Netherlands

growstuff Thu 27-Apr-23 16:53:36

ronib I don't know where the group is heading either, but there is no doubt that their ideas have been gaining traction over the last few years and they have been influencing mainstream political parties in the UK and in other countries, such as the US and Hungary.

growstuff Thu 27-Apr-23 16:51:02

Katie59

There is no comparison to Germany in the 1930s, after the humiliation of WW1 the upper classes were vastly impoverished it only took a little Austrian corporal to ignite wholesale resentment of the way they were being treated.

Totally different in the UK today, it’s the older generation who own property control, the householders and business owners who want to see their hard work handed down to their family. Many of them (us) will say that the young, less fortunate should be helped more but in practice only help their own family.

National conservatism is the “haves” v “have nots” the problem is that a living wage is not a living wage, you cannot pay the rent and live, the only way to survive is with benefits and social housing and it shouldn’t be.

I don't know how you can even claim there is no comparison. I give up!

Incidentally, there were a number of rich Germans who profited greatly from the 1923 hyperinflation. For example, anybody with a bank loan or mortgage quite simply paid it off with worthless money. There was a huge amount of profiteering and black market trading.

National conservatism isn't just about the "haves" and "have nots", although people like Rees Mogg will enlist the help of resentful "have nots" to swell the numbers of supporters.

It's a culture war. The opponents are liberal thinkers, who believe in concepts such as equality. Hence, the attacks on those "woke" lefties who have been to university and dare to have relatively well-paid jobs and have gained some power. They might even usurp the power of those currently in control (how dare they?) It's easy to see why such attacks would appeal to the envy of those who don't have higher education.

ronib Thu 27-Apr-23 16:48:49

Returning to the National Conservatism:A statement of principles, I read that the economic policy must serve the general welfare of the nation.
How?
Also where a country has a majority Christian population, that the bible holds sway so I thought… it’s easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of heaven. Tends to knock out the billionaires?

Give to Caesar that which is Caesars, etc tends to imply fair payment of taxes and not complete ripoff?
Not too sure where this group is headed but certainly open to misunderstanding.