Publicly owned rail services?

A lot of public assets are capable of being realised. The whole point of taking the railways back into public ownership would be to retain them in perpetuity - hence their value would be the yield they are capable of producing.

Not true. Public assets appear, essentially, on balance sheets and are used, in that context, for all sorts of investment and ratings decisions.

An asset that the is never intended to be disposed of Dinahmo - the only value being the yield, whatever it might be.

Dinahmo

In the autumn before covid we travelled by train to Florence, via Zurich so that we could go on the Bernina Express. This involved an overnight stay in Zurich, in an hotel close to the railway station. That cost 250 euros. The cost of return journey - Limoges, Paris, Zurich, Chur for the Bernina Express, Tirano, Milan and Florence; return via Turin, Paris, Limoges. The cost of all that, for 2 was less than the Zurich hotel cost.

We’ve been considering a similar trip, it would be nice not to have to drive for a change.

In the autumn before covid we travelled by train to Florence, via Zurich so that we could go on the Bernina Express. This involved an overnight stay in Zurich, in an hotel close to the railway station. That cost 250 euros. The cost of return journey - Limoges, Paris, Zurich, Chur for the Bernina Express, Tirano, Milan and Florence; return via Turin, Paris, Limoges. The cost of all that, for 2 was less than the Zurich hotel cost.

Germanshepherdsmum

It’s interesting to read what your husband, who has far more knowledge and expertise about this than any of us, has to say Ash. It’s so easy to say we should do X, whether X is actually achievable and if so at what cost is another matter entirely. I have said this before in connection with calls to bring the water and other industries into public ownership - can anyone imagine what it would cost to buy out the private companies? The government cannot simply acquire them without paying full compensation to the stakeholders.

But if you believe in "balancing the books" as per Thatcher, then you accept that the govt will have acquired an asset by borrowing. Loan on one asset on the other.

The Tories have already nationalized nearly half of the rail system Transpennine Express is the latest, before that South Eastern 2021. LNER 2018. West Coast Avanti is the next target, wether it improves the service or reduces cost we will see. Currently the real cost of a rail journey is 3 times the fare, that is comparable to other countries in Europe.

I think most of us realise now how utterly stupid the privatisation of the railways was. The nationalised rail system may not have been 100%perfect but it was infinitely better than the present system which is not only expensive, but complicated, inefficient and unaccountable. Let"s hope this just starts things off and we return to a national rail service.

“Why do people always regard nationalised services as one way money pits?

Why don’t more people realise the present contract model is just that?”

Because in the past they were, because the management was so bad, private enterprise was supposed to be more efficient. Some were many were not.

I am surprised that the general public tolerates the railways in this country. Expensive, unreliable and dirty. Other countries manage to provide good public transport for its citizens, why can’t we? Surely it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility? Of course we are subjects, and only incidentally citizens.
If a march was organised, I’d join it.

Having been a victim of the trans Pennine service on many occasions I am glad their contract is ending. The train services in many parts aren't working so may be time to renationalise.

Sadly we can't 'do' double decker trains because of our Victorian railway bridges. They're too low... Probably our tunnels are too low as well.

P.S We are a very dirty country. There seems to be no getting away from that fact...☹

I have recently returned from a holiday in Germany. I was very impressed with the trains. Double decker carriages and spotlessly clean inside. The German government has introduced a monthly, Euro 49, travel card. You can travel on trains, buses and trams throughout Germany. The idea is to reduce Co2 emissions. Something we, in the UK, can't have due to transport services being privatised. The UK train I travelled home on, was absolutely filthy. Foreign visitors must think we are dirty and don't care.

Of course compulsory purchase would be required in the case of the water industry. In the case of compulsory purchase of land for infrastructure such as HS2 it isn’t difficult or time consuming to reach an open market value and statutory provisions enable entry to be made on the land before the whole of the compensation is paid, which is often years later in the case of non-residential property. Interest runs from the date of entry. It would be interesting to see how the compulsory purchase of the water industry could proceed - I don’t say it’s impossible, but it would be phenomenally expensive and unlikely to be achieved in a single government term.
Of course rail contracts can simply not be renewed,^depending on their provisions ^

I'm sorry if I sound patronising but all this groundhog stuff is so pointless. If people won't see beyond the national finances are like household finances myth how on earth are we going to get any change happening? - well quite - I keep grinding on about this ad nauseam.

And again from MaisieD - Government has to spend money before it can tax it back. If the government didn't continually spend into the economy the supply of money available to everyone would get smaller and smaller as companies and individuals took their profits out of the economy and the government took it out via taxation.

We have to spend on public services, not just to make sure our country is compassionate and moral, but so people get incomes which they can spend to boost the economy and manufacturing.

The current state of the railways is embarrassing and shaming. The farces that are created by multiple companies are the daily experience of travellers. I tried to book a journey that involved changing train companies en route - I had to contact each one separately to find out if their trains were affected by strikes. I once sat in the Severn tunnel for hours after a breakdown, as the company involved would not pay another company to shunt us out, so we had to wait for a train from their company.

but in the end it would have to be a compulsory purchase, much as has happened to people in the line of HS2.

I agree that that would probably be an outcome, but the value of the companies to be 'purchased' could be manipulated. If, for example, the water companies were far more tightly regulated, with punitive fines for breaching regulations, their value would probably plummet. Policing conformity to the regulations would require more government monetary input than at present, but it would be contributing to economic growth while reducing the value of the companies to a point where they would be happy to sell...

Of course, with Rail, the way it works at the moment, all the government would have to do is wait until the term of each franchise is ended and then take it back into public ownership.

Germanshepherdsmum

^I’m happy for any amount of public money to be invested in public services^
I said the other day that I think you would be happy to see the government creating money ad infinitum Maizie. Do you consider that approach to be sustainable?

So long as there are resources to be bought and people to be employed and taxation is set at a level to counter inflation without impoverishing the less well of members of our society then yes, I think it is sustainable.

Of course I wouldn't be happy to see government creating money ad infinitum. That would just be silly.

The way I see it is that there is a nettle to be grasped, and whereas it might be a massive job to put things right, it can be done if there is a will. Where defeatism comes in is when people think that because something is difficult it can’t be done. Governments make the laws, so if something is stymied by legislation today, the law can be changed so it is not illegal tomorrow. Just as the government of the day took things out of public ownership with no compensation to the public, they could reclaim them if they wanted to. To maintain public trust and consent they could offer compensation to shareholders, but in the end it would have to be a compulsory purchase, much as has happened to people in the line of HS2. .

It’s interesting to read what your husband, who has far more knowledge and expertise about this than any of us, has to say Ash. It’s so easy to say we should do X, whether X is actually achievable and if so at what cost is another matter entirely. I have said this before in connection with calls to bring the water and other industries into public ownership - can anyone imagine what it would cost to buy out the private companies? The government cannot simply acquire them without paying full compensation to the stakeholders.

I’m happy for any amount of public money to be invested in public services
I said the other day that I think you would be happy to see the government creating money ad infinitum Maizie. Do you consider that approach to be sustainable?

I'm perfectly happy for any amount of public money to be invested in public services. It would have so many benefits for all participants in the domestic economy.

I get very frustrated when people start saying that we'd need higher taxation to 'pay' for it. It's so defeatist sounding and plays into the hands of the right wing and its client media who, with unwearied regularity, portray state spending as irresponsibly spendthrift and persuade the electorate that it'll bankrupt the country.

I'm sorry if I sound patronising but all this groundhog stuff is so pointless. If people won't see beyond the national finances are like household finances myth how on earth are we going to get any change happening?

My DH, who spent 38 years working in the railway industry, had this to say:

"Unfortunately, the railway in 2023 is very, very different from that which existed on 31.3.1994, the day before Railtrack became a legal entity. By comparison, the railway that was Nationalised on 1.1.1948 underwent relatively few fundamental changes in the next 46 years, apart from adding an overall structure at the highest level, wresting decision-making from the Big Four (LMS, GWR, LNER and Southern) that had owned it until then. Those companies had been pretty much bankrupted by WW2.

The mid-90s Privatisation split the industry into a myriad separate private companies, each with a legitimate profit-motive. They ranged from Rolling Stock Companies and Train Operating Companies to a man in a shed fixing wagons under contract. Nearly 30 years later, inevitably mergers and splits have seen further changes. Outside parties, in addition, provide manpower and machinery for contracted work. At one time, all this was under the BR umbrella.

Getting all that lot under one control again would be somewhere between those two popular expressions - herding cats and nailing jelly to the ceiling."

MaizieD

^A good bus and rail service would require investment at first, but when established it could be at least partially financed by heavier taxes for those who insist on using cars for every journey.^

So where would the fares that people paid be going? Into thin air?

And the tax paid by the transport workers and the companies supplying goods and services to the nationalised transport systems?

Why do people always regard nationalised services as one way money pits?

I don't. I am talking about reopening the lines, building stations, other setup costs that I don't pretend to know about (do you?). all of that would cost money in the first place, but would be repaid in time.

Of course they would take in money from fares, but I would prefer to see a properly nationalised model where busy lines subsidised quieter ones.

I do wish you wouldn't be so patronising. There's really no need - it's just a discussion.

I have thought that the re-nationalising the railways has been on the cards for a while now.

Siope

^Why do people always regard nationalised services as one way money pits?^

Why don’t more people realise the present contract model is just that?

Brainwashing by Maggie Thatcher I think, Siope 😆