Pitch for leader ?

ronib

Or another way of looking at it is - we’re not training up/educating our own children and instead places are going to people who will not play an active part in the Uk economy? And we will have a shortage of key workers?

That’s not true is it? There are sufficient university places for all UK students who achieve the right grades, and a surplus for students from overseas. If there were no overseas students courses would not run, and some universities would doubtless cease to exist.

Or another way of looking at it is - we’re not training up/educating our own children and instead places are going to people who will not play an active part in the Uk economy? And we will have a shortage of key workers?

Remember that overseas students who contribute a lot to the economy, very often return home or move on to other countries within a few years of graduation.

Their experience of British universities is usually positive and enhances the UK's "soft power" in the world - all the more needed now that we have thrown away the advantages of EU membership.

Monica sorry you think it’s irrelevant to the thread as it does completely contradict your statements. It’s always good practice to present both sides?

I have just done so. I disagree with him so profoundly, but not on the grounds he uses and he saw his opponents as being Malthusians, and I am not a follower of malthus.

But all this is irrelevant to this thread so I will go no further.

No. Should I ?

Monica have you read any books by Julian Simon?

Falling populations and low birth rates are a world wide phenomena. I think Italy and Japan have the lowest rates in the world. Even countries like India and Bangladesh, previously everyone's cliche for huge population, now have birth rates close to replacement only. Africa is the only continent with birthrates still well above replacement level.

Looking at things globally, population rise is being driven by increased longevity, world wide. And a good thing too. Many of the problems of this planet are driven by the huge population of Homo Sapiens that inhabit it and to know that within 50 years the total number will have peaked and will then start to reduce, can only be greeted with sighs of relief for our descendants.

Silly arguments whether from assinine MPs or anyone else about birthrates in tiny areas of the world's land masses do strike me as being a lot of twaddle. Over population, everywhere is resolved more than anything by educating women who can then enter the labour force, and are able to make their way in the world and not having to submit themselves to marriage and endless pregnancies. When a woman is making a contribution to the household income, that income is too precious to be lost because she cannot work because she is expecting yet another child.

In an ideal world, the human population should at least halve, it would drastically reduce the contribution we are making to global warming and enable humankind and the quintillions of other species that live on this planet with us to live more in harmony.

My 1.29 for Scotland was for 2020, as I think that’s the year the World Data Bank were working from, but I could be wrong there.

* ronib* thank you. They say they use data from UN calculations, but, following their source link, I see it’s from UN projections, and I can’t find (aka have more useful things to do) the data they are relying on.

I can’t be bothered to work it out either, but at a casual glance, I assume they get 1.56 by taking a fairly crude average of the known birth rates (England and Wales 1.61, Scotland 1.29, Northern Ireland 1.81) and dividing them by 3.

So many reasons why that isn’t a useful approach to issues relation to population decline (not your fault for using the figure, obviously).

More information-
nrscotland.gov.uk
Scotland had second lowest annual total of live births since records began in 1855. Rate of 1.31 ….
28/6/22

Siope
data.world bank.org
Shows UK birth rate of 1.6 for 2021
For example

ronib

Siope I googled.. of course. Okay there’s some variation in figures but generally speaking the population is not replicating itself.
Growstuff indigenous meaning native.

But why did you say UK? There are no collated figures for the UK, as far as I know. Happy to be shown otherwise.

And, yes, it matters. Because immigration is a route to balancing the population, and acknowledging different needs in different parts of the country should be an important part of the immigration debate.

The population of Orkney is about 25% Norwegian. Most of us in England have a significant amount of north European DNA. Then there are various Celtic groups, who came originally from somewhere else. The Welsh have the nearest DNA to the earliest settlers after the Ice Age. So who's native/indigenous?

Is Farage a native?

Is Braverman?

It depends how old they are, what type of work they are able to and how much they contribute to the economy, surely. It’s not a simple numbers game.

Oreo

That’s just silly growstuff everyone knows what’s meant by native.

No, it's not silly. Define what you mean.

🤣

volver3

^but generally speaking the population is not replicating itself.^

So don't we need immigrants to make up the shortfall and make us a viable state??

What am I missing?

Blinkers.

That’s just silly growstuff everyone knows what’s meant by native.

ronib

Casdon I am tempted to say that self sufficiency isn’t really the end goal- we benefit from being a diverse society or at least, we could.
Let me think about it.

We benefit from hybrid vigour, for a start.

If we need people to maintain the country, does it matter what colour skin they have?

but generally speaking the population is not replicating itself.

So don't we need immigrants to make up the shortfall and make us a viable state??

What am I missing?

ronib

Siope I googled.. of course. Okay there’s some variation in figures but generally speaking the population is not replicating itself.
Growstuff indigenous meaning native.

Errmm... but what do you mean by native?

I doubt if anybody has ancestors who evolved solely in the UK. What about all those pesky Jutes and Angles?

Siope I googled.. of course. Okay there’s some variation in figures but generally speaking the population is not replicating itself.
Growstuff indigenous meaning native.

Being a diverse society is good, most European countries are these days.Taking in too many immigrants, legal or illegal isn’t good at all.Numbers do matter very much when it comes to housing, education and healthcare.