The Johnsons baby announcement

I still think the economy can evolve and adapt to a non growth economy, based on recyclingand reusing, almost everything. One of the fastestgrowing sectors of the economy recently has been the services industry. My neighbours employ cleaners and gardners, something we never thought of, even though both of us, in our time, had well paid professional jobs and were time poor. Look at the number working in child care, I managed without it, as it wasn't available - and those are just immediate domestic service jobs. Coffee shops are booming, I cannot ever remember even thinking about taking a bought coffee into work, the shops selling them weren't there.

The economy may change to meet new circumstances, as it has since time immoral.

I don't disagree with you, MOnica, but it would be instructive to know the comparative sizes of the 'thrift' and 'consumption' sectors. I suspect that the latter is very much the larger.

Maizie Thrift is big business and can support a lot of jobs. Look at how many people work in the green industries, reusing, and recycling materials. These are not domestic jobs reusing and recycling domestic waste, but industry also now recycles and reuses.

When our local coal fired power station was demolished, reccling materials formed a key part of the demolition contract and something like 80-90,000 tons of different materials were recovered and recycled. All this recycling employs 10s of thousands of people

There is room for this to expand. More electrical goods should be repairable,

There are a lot of jobs in thrift - and there could be many more

Thrift is a thing of the past.

Thrift is the very last thing that our capitalist consumer society needs or wants. Consumption is the thing that 'grows' the economy and we (meaning the government and, loosely, the population at large) are fixated on 'growth'.

I'm not saying this to justify over consumption, in fact it has worried me for years, but, despite continual warnings of the contribution to climate change and harmful pollution made by it there is very little serious effort made to change our consumption. And I can understand that because an enormous number of jobs depend on it. What happens to them?

A whole new way of thinking and active change is needed.

Which obviously would relate to how and when people work in paid employment... and how 'work' is shared between people raising families.

No it’s not surprising that they want them and feel they can’t live without them.Mind you I used to want things too, still do but can’t afford them so live within my means with little debt.

Oreo

FannyCornforth

And they are both teachers.
My initial point was that working class men with blue collar jobs earned enough to amply provide for his family

No they didn’t!
My Dad was a postman and our house was council, we had no car either and hardly any holidays unless you count staying with relatives.Mum ( now 80) had to make a little money go a long long way.We ate, but hardly ever had any new clothes or outings.People only just managed it wasn’t some golden age.
Difference now is people want so much more and feel cheated if they can’t have meals and coffee out and drinks nights and holidays abroad along with everything else.DD enjoys going to work, says it’s great to get away from nappies ( muggins here has to do it!)

Difference now is people want so much more...

I think that's true - but then, there is so much more available for consumption that we didn't have 50 / 60 years ago!

And, we are encouraged to consume - in-your-face advertisements pop up on every online site; supermarkets full of all kinds of 'stuff' (the 'middle isle' in, what is it - Aldi or one of the other low-budget supermarkets?) on display.

I also remember - it wasn't that long ago - pensioners being encourage by a few economists / journalists and other assorted bods to spend their money into the economy rather than (as they implied) "selfishly" saving it!

In a way, it's hardly surprising that people want "things" and feel deprived if they can't have them.

Even a child's birthday party - something that used to be quite a simple affair - is now commercialised with all kinds of additional goodies to make the event 'special'.

Thrift is a thing of the past.

FannyCornforth

And they are both teachers.
My initial point was that working class men with blue collar jobs earned enough to amply provide for his family

No they didn’t!
My Dad was a postman and our house was council, we had no car either and hardly any holidays unless you count staying with relatives.Mum ( now 80) had to make a little money go a long long way.We ate, but hardly ever had any new clothes or outings.People only just managed it wasn’t some golden age.
Difference now is people want so much more and feel cheated if they can’t have meals and coffee out and drinks nights and holidays abroad along with everything else.DD enjoys going to work, says it’s great to get away from nappies ( muggins here has to do it!)

Baggs

We need to stop talking about mothers of young children "going back to work". They are at work looking after their children. It really pisses me off that so few people recognise bringing up one's children oneself as a good job to do. I think its importance is very under appreciated.

Well said.

If looking after children at a nursery, being a childminder is considered valuable work why is looking after your own children considered to be less so? Even lazy or demeaning!

Baggs

We need to stop talking about mothers of young children "going back to work". They are at work looking after their children. It really pisses me off that so few people recognise bringing up one's children oneself as a good job to do. I think its importance is very under appreciated.

Well said Baggs.

I object to the term “working mother” too. If you have children you are working, whether at home with them all the time or in an outside paid job as well as looking after them part of the time. I had a friend who had a paid job and who referred to quality time with her children when she was at home. I was a full-time SAHM and regarded quality time as being when DH looked after them and I could go to the loo without someone banging on the door to have a sibling dealt with!

I notice that Carrie Johnson’s Instagram announcement was made on the day the Privileges Committee told Johnson they would take the new information about his Covid guidance (and possibly law) breaking into account. I am cynical enough to think the Johnsons expected the news to become public the same day and needed some distraction headlines.

We didn't have a "grandiose lifestyle". I worked to afford the mortgage and be able to feed and clothe our children, as do many parents. They don't have a choice

No, a lot of people don't sadly, neither did I with my first two children. I have no problem with anybody choosing to work because they want a better standard of living or working because they have to but I do hate that being a SAHM is looked down upon by some people.

FannyCornforth

And they are both teachers.
My initial point was that working class men with blue collar jobs earned enough to amply provide for his family

Agreed.

My 'blue collar' engineer husband always provided, still does.

And they are both teachers.
My initial point was that working class men with blue collar jobs earned enough to amply provide for his family

Casdon yes, of course.
It don’t disagree that it is definitely should be a choice.
My point was that it isn’t a choice for many.
The men to whom I refer are in their 30s.
I think it’s very sad

FannyCornforth

Casdon I don’t agree.
I have two male friends who both have relatively high earning wives, and it’s the men who would like to be stay at home parents.
A two income household is now a necessity.

That’s fine FannyCornforth, it’s such an emotive area and we are allowed to disagree. In my experience, it’s about independence, with younger women no longer wanting to be dependent on their husband. Admittedly most of those I know are in professional jobs, have worked hard to get where they are in work, and enjoy working. They leave having children later than our generation did, have less children, know that more relationships break down, and they want to depend on their own resources. These aren’t people who are bad parents, in fact quite the opposite, they are excellent. It’s the parents who don’t focus on their children when they are with them that I think we should be worried about.

Casdon I don’t agree.
I have two male friends who both have relatively high earning wives, and it’s the men who would like to be stay at home parents.
A two income household is now a necessity.

Casdon Most younger women do want to work, I know plenty with families, but I can only think of one SAHM. It’s a choice for the vast majority of them, not an economic imperative. I think that’s how it should be for all mothers - a choice.

Personally, I know none who have worked after children, however, it's a valid choice. All families should freely work out what suits.

Most younger women do want to work, I know plenty with families, but I can only think of one SAHM. It’s a choice for the vast majority of them, not an economic imperative. I think that’s how it should be for all mothers - a choice.

What SAHMs tend to forget though is that for those of us who worked, the only thing we didn’t do was spend so many hours with our children - all the other work associated with raising them and looking after the home was still there, with the added pressure of spending more time outside the home, often in a pressurised job, as well, which is even harder than being a SAHM just because of the competing demands on time. I don’t judge SAHMs, it’s entirely up to them, but I couldn’t have done it myself.

icanhandthemback

Baggs

We need to stop talking about mothers of young children "going back to work". They are at work looking after their children. It really pisses me off that so few people recognise bringing up one's children oneself as a good job to do. I think its importance is very under appreciated.

I agree Baggs. I was able to stay at home with my third child having struggled to work and look after my other two whilst battling a disability. I was so relieved when my husband said he'd be happier if I stayed home. The worst people for looking down on me for such a decision were other women who actually chose to work in order to have a more grandiose lifestyle. I accepted their choice without judgement but couldn't understand why they found it so hard to accept mine. I had a fulfilling life volunteering where I could and being able to say no when family life needed me. I also cared for elderly members of my family where I could. It felt like work to me!

Well, maybe that just shows how judgmental all people can be.

I found the polar opposite. When my children were little, we lived in a village, where I was one of the few full-time working (outside the home) mothers.

I was never able to attend sports days or the other daytime activities at my children's school. I was never one of the network who went round to each others' houses for coffee. At least one of the teachers looked down her nose at me.

We didn't have a "grandiose lifestyle". I worked to afford the mortgage and be able to feed and clothe our children, as do many parents. They don't have a choice.

Needs to put a knot in it!

Baggs

We need to stop talking about mothers of young children "going back to work". They are at work looking after their children. It really pisses me off that so few people recognise bringing up one's children oneself as a good job to do. I think its importance is very under appreciated.

I agree too. After doing a job which involved over 80 hours a week I stopped to have DC1 and realised that as a breast-feeding mother I was on call 168 hours a week. That came as a bit of a shock, and I was always very cross when asked when I was "going back to work" when I was working harder than ever!

Now you have two adults working their backside off, often with multiple jobs, and they can’t even afford a bloody house and doubt that they can even have one child.

Quite a lot of parents literally only have time to give their children tea and put them to bed. My son and his wife only realised how little time they actually spent with their preschool child when Covid hit and they worked from home.

Baggs

We need to stop talking about mothers of young children "going back to work". They are at work looking after their children. It really pisses me off that so few people recognise bringing up one's children oneself as a good job to do. I think its importance is very under appreciated.

Agreed. I stayed home with our children - never wasn't home.

However, I'd guess the majority of posters disagree.

And me.

Remember when a man could do a modest job (foreman, postman, builder) and the family could afford the run a house, a car, feed and clothe a couple of children, have an annual holiday.

Now you have two adults working their backside off, often with multiple jobs, and they can’t even afford a bloody house and doubt that they can even have one child.

Something has gone drastically wrong