When did UK governments lose their way?

growstuff

The problem is that inequality goes deeper than something which can be overcome by a few mitigations. It's systemic and is perpetuated by inheritance. If the little sperm which has produced you happens to have been made by the Duke of Westminster, you're always going to have an advantage.

More equal educational opportunities, healthcare and initiatives such as Sure Start are a good place to start, but it's a bit like battling the wind and waves in a storm compared with being in an indoor swimming pool.

You’re right of course, but given that isn’t going to happen broadening opportunities is at least a step in the right direction.

janipans

I think we need radical reform.
Abandon Lib/Lab/Con etc completely - ie NO parties!
There should be local elections where we vote for a person, and what they stand for (not a party) and the winners of those elections should then be selected to serve as our government.
Those elected, should choose a leader to be PM.
All issues to be discussed and voted on, on their own merit and the majority vote carried. Less time spent bitching and sniping, more time collaborating together and getting the job in hand done!

Absolutely agree with you. That way you'd also have a wider pool of people and skills to choose from when filling posts. Under the present system, it seems that MPs can be moved from, say, Education to Health and be expected to be an expert. Hopefully it would also mean less arguing for its own sake across party divisions.

Reading this thread with interest and I see many blame Margaret Thatcher for a lot that is wrong. First, Callaghan and Healey who were PM and Chancellor were wealthy. They both owned farms in Sussex which was a very expensive area. But really spammygirl who say she will vote Labour to get a”properly funded health service” needs to think again. Will any of you ever agree that we need to restructure the NHS and look at more successful Health services overseas? No UK government has the courage to tell the truth and change the whole system. The NHS gets about a third of money collected by central government. So spammygirl how do we properly fund the NHS? Are you willing to give more of your income in taxes? I am close to 89 and am still paying tax, although I am currently living overseas. I am happy to pay my share but raising rates of income tax will not be popular. The Conservatives have been too long in office and are very mediocre but I do not see Labour as a party fizzing with good ideas. We’re doomed I tell you, doomed ( Dads Army?)

Will any of you ever agree that we need to restructure the NHS and look at more successful Health services overseas?

Nope!

For the simple reason that taxation doesn't fund spending. A fact that people are finding incredibly hard to understand, of course, but a fact nonetheless.

I have explained loads of times how state spending on the NHS, and many other public services, would be beneficial to the economy and it would actually increase the tax take without having to increase anyone's taxation.

Owning a farm doesn't make anyone a bloated plutocrat. That is not what is at issue here. The issue is that Thatcher's policies redistributed the national wealth up to the already wealthy and did very little to benefit the rest of the population. They contributed to financial and social inequality and the distress they caused to the poor and unemployed has left a long legacy of disengagement and resentment.

There is a vast difference between people failing to make use of opportunities and there being no opportunities for people to make use of.

Yes Anniel we definitely agree with you. We have dire Nhs provision in the South East and no sign of any improvement.

How very sensible of you at the age of 89 to spend your time out of the Uk.

What exactly do you mean by "to restructure the NHS"? I happen to agree that it needs restructuring too - for a start, commissioning (with its crony contracts and fragmentation) and the involvement of the private sector needs to be reversed.

I also think there needs to be a strengthening of the idea of a "healthcare system for all".

I suspect that's not what you mean.

I'm not at all sure what Healey's and Callaghan's backgrounds have to do with anything, apart from being an attempt at some kind of distraction.

ronib

Mark Thatcher’s net worth £60 million? Euan Blair considerably more.

What does that have to do with anything? At least Euan Blair hasn't been arrested for trying to fund an illegal coup.
In 2004 Thatcher was sentenced to 4 years imprisonment for that little activity. The prison term was suspended.

Sir Bernard Ingham suggested, in the run up to the 1987 election, that the best thing he could do would be to leave the country.

Anniel The bulk of Callaghan's and Healey's wealth came from their homes. As does that of most people. Healey's estate was worth £2.7 million and Callaghan's was worth £1.9 million.

Callaghan's home was bought in 1968, with the aid of a mortgage and was estimated to be worth between £20k and £30k when they moved in.

When did UK governments lose their way?

When Thatcher was elected and saw the salvation of the UK on the “service economy” .

It’s been a great success hasnt it, all its given us is high wages for the few rich and poverty wages for those providing the services.

Dinahmo I don’t understand how Euan Blair’s apprenticeship training degree program has posted 6 years of losses, apparently still making Euan richer than his father.
Best not to sidetrack I suppose but political positions do give very handsomely across the political divide. Seems to be built in to the system of inequality which we’re currently thinking about.

People have invested in his company - why - I don't know. A bit like Elon Musk who makes losses but still people invest.

Best not to sidetrack I suppose but political positions do give very handsomely across the political divide. Seems to be built in to the system of inequality which we’re currently thinking about.

Just for once you're not sidetracking, ronib. This is part and parcel of what I have said two or three times already. It's not Euan Blair's political connections that means he can make money even though his company is loss making (which could ne a 'loss' for tax purposes). It's that he started with the great advantage of wealthy parents and is living in a country where the governance is weighted in favour of the already wealthy.

They are in positions of power and have the ear of government, they can afford expensive and extensive lobbying, they can give big donations to political parties and MPs with the expectation that their donations will be 'value for money'. They expect, and mostly get, governance which is run to their advantage.

No amount of 'mitigation' for the poorer members of our society can outweigh the influence of the wealthy over our laws and regulations.

MaizieD and Euan Blair’s model is aimed at providing apprenticeships with a degree qualification attached to them. So it’s vaguely ironic that Euan Blair stands to make millions on the backs of the less advantaged but it would be great if it worked to be fair.

ronib

MaizieD and Euan Blair’s model is aimed at providing apprenticeships with a degree qualification attached to them. So it’s vaguely ironic that Euan Blair stands to make millions on the backs of the less advantaged but it would be great if it worked to be fair.

But the point is that our laws allow this.

An illustration from the Open Democracy website. They looked into the use of covid loans to business during the pandemic.

They found that many companies appeared to use their loans to increase executive pay and give dividends to shareholders. And for share buybacks.

It's worth reading

www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/covid-19-furlough-business-rates-relief-inequality/

Braver man is in this instance speaking sense, it’s what most if us think. We don’t want economic migrants who come through safe countries to get here after leaving a safe country in the
first place like the Albanians,

Lost it with Tony Blair, and his meddling wife. Iraq war, kowtowing to the megalomaniac Bush, who couldn't leave his father's interference in Iraq alone. Blair and Cambell have a lot to answer for.

MaizieD read the Open Democracy link which made me think about income inequality on a global scale. The Uk ranks 15th on the list as most unequal, France is 16th, South Africa tops the scale and Ukraine has the highest income equality.
Not too sure what it adds to the mix?

Freya5

Lost it with Tony Blair, and his meddling wife. Iraq war, kowtowing to the megalomaniac Bush, who couldn't leave his father's interference in Iraq alone. Blair and Cambell have a lot to answer for.

Alastair Campbell has done three The Rest is Politics podcasts in which he explains the reasoning behind this country supporting Bush. Rory Stewart doesn’t hold back on his questioning or criticism. It’s worth listening to. It wasn’t a decision taken lightly.

Allsorts

Braver man is in this instance speaking sense, it’s what most if us think. We don’t want economic migrants who come through safe countries to get here after leaving a safe country in the
first place like the Albanians,

Who's "we"?

ronib

MaizieD and Euan Blair’s model is aimed at providing apprenticeships with a degree qualification attached to them. So it’s vaguely ironic that Euan Blair stands to make millions on the backs of the less advantaged but it would be great if it worked to be fair.

Why do you think that apprenticeships with a degree benefit the less advantaged?

There's absolutely no evidence for that.

Dinahmo

People have invested in his company - why - I don't know. A bit like Elon Musk who makes losses but still people invest.

I know why they've invested. It's because it's a very sound idea, which many people have been calling for.

Katie59

When did UK governments lose their way?

When Thatcher was elected and saw the salvation of the UK on the “service economy” .

It’s been a great success hasnt it, all its given us is high wages for the few rich and poverty wages for those providing the services.

But that would be a success in Conservative terms. It made enough people better off to ensure those people voted for the "team" which made them better off.

They should never have let people buy their council houses. We now have generations of people that can’t afford to buy and have to pay extortionate rents to unscrupulous landlords. Then they sold off school playing fields. I mean, why would poor kids need to learn how to play games. I assumed that my dad who had Alzheimer’s would be able to go into a council run home when my mum died only to find that I had to put him in a private home that none of us could afford.

Growstuff first who do you think of as less advantaged?
In general terms graduates have the potential for earning more than the average wage. Not everyone can or even wants to go to Oxbridge where the very high earning potential can be found. For the lesser mortal , without family connections and support, a qualification is one route to a better career.
Or perhaps you know differently? Am interested to hear your opinion.