Puzzled about 'kidnapping' lambs

Totally agree with your post of 15.36.58 growstuff

I wouldn’t dream of trying to convert a vegetarian or vegan to eat meat, I cater for all dietary requirements when we have guests.

I am fed up with vegans and vegetarians preaching and trying to convert myself and other meat eaters.

Callistemon21 My personal view is that the majority of animals reared in this country are not reared to an acceptable welfare standard. Organisations like the RSPCA, only set minimal standards, below which they consider care to be cruelty.

I would say that if we need to feed animals food that their digestive systems cannot properly digest and which causes them pain and discomfort; feeding cattle soya, maize or rapeseed, for example and if many acres of virgin forest and jungle are being destroyed to grow them, then I would say, that is both environmentally damaging as well as animal cruelty.

As far as my own meat eating habits are concerned, it's a bit ironic because I hardly eat any meat, although I do eat dairy and eggs.

If I appear vociferous, it's because I object to being told about the virtues of veganism as a solution to high food prices (which has happened on GN) and that I could easily adapt a vegan diet to my T2 diabetic needs, when I know very well how difficult that would be.

I also think it's unrealistic to think the whole world is going to become vegan for the reasons I've already given. The change to the way the world operates would be colossal. We've already witnessed the poverty which eating grains such as quinoa has caused and nobody has said where extremely poor peasants in third world countries would get their protein and fat, if they didn't have a few chickens and a goat.

growstuff

nightowl

Why do people feel a need to defend meat eating so intensely? It’s not as though vegans have any power to stop it.

But they try. Isn't that why the three lambs were stolen?

I don't think people are vociferous about meat eating but if someone is attacked it's usual to put up some kind of defence. Meat eaters have been called names and attacked on GN in the past but tend not to attack vegans for their views.
Each to their own views.

But alleged facts need to be substantiated.

Callistemon21

Now, if everyone in Australia ate free range rabbit it would solve a few problems!

I didn’t think the outback was lush
No you didn't say that.

But it can be. It's not all desert. The Outback is huge and spans several climate zones.

Can people knit with rabbit fur?

nightowl

Why do people feel a need to defend meat eating so intensely? It’s not as though vegans have any power to stop it.

But they try. Isn't that why the three lambs were stolen?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202305/medium-729200-184-carpentaria-tropical-savanna--davidb601.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202305/medium-69210-download.jpeg

Now, if everyone in Australia ate free range rabbit it would solve a few problems!

I didn’t think the outback was lush
No you didn't say that.

But it can be. It's not all desert. The Outback is huge and spans several climate zones.

vegansrock

I didn’t think the outback was lush. Where did so say that? Why do we have to destroy every environment - rain forests chopped down for cheap beef burgers and fodder for pigs. People should stop trying to convince people that we are doing animals a favour by eating them.

We ate meat until a few years ago. Don't care to eat meat now.

However, in past we ate delicious Iberian pork. It's a sustainable answer for organic pig farming. The non-ruminant pigs eat acorns and produce far less methane than ruminant cows.

I didn’t think the outback was lush. Where did so say that? Why do we have to destroy every environment - rain forests chopped down for cheap beef burgers and fodder for pigs. People should stop trying to convince people that we are doing animals a favour by eating them.

nightowl

Why do people feel a need to defend meat eating so intensely? It’s not as though vegans have any power to stop it.

Why do vegans feel the need to impose their beliefs on the other 99% of the population

Why do people feel a need to defend meat eating so intensely? It’s not as though vegans have any power to stop it.

Clever stuff, huh?
Yes.
2nd Viscount Townshend aka Turnip Townshend!

I was being flippant
It's ok, I got it. 😁

I was answering vegansrock who perhaps thought the Outback was all lush before sheep arrived there.
I think rabbits do a lot of damage causing soil erosion.
Another introduced species.

MOnica I agree with your post of 8.07. You've expressed clearly what I've been trying to say.

Callistemon21

vegansrock

The outback would be like it was before Europeans took sheep there.

🤔

Dry and arid desert, much of it, other parts lush; there is huge diversity.

The Outback is not totally populated by sheep!
Or cattle stations.

I was being flippant.

The point I was making is that there are vast areas of the world which just are not suitable for arable farming, so claims that land now being used for livestock could be used to grow crops aren't quite true.

Humans have always used whatever land (and technology) was available to them to produce food.

By the way, the humble turnip was significant because turnips could be used for over-wintering livestock, so they didn't need slaughtering before winter. Turnips also have deep roots and can extract nutrients from quite deep. The animal waste then fertilised the soil, so that heavier crop yields were achieved. There was no need for a fallow year. Clever stuff, huh?

www.britannica.com/topic/Norfolk-four-course-system

or seen as just another raw material to be exploited with out regard to the quality of their life.

M0nica
Most, perhaps not all, farmers care for their animals.
Neglecting them or keeping them on poor conditions results in less profit so would be a foolish move.

What we need to do in this country is to fight against the huge factory farms as seen in the States. We've more or less succeeded in this here with egg production but people still want cheaper and cheaper food as finances tighten.
We've become used to food costing us a low proportion of average income in this country while property prices and rents have soared.

vegansrock

The outback would be like it was before Europeans took sheep there.

🤔

Dry and arid desert, much of it, other parts lush; there is huge diversity.

The Outback is not totally populated by sheep!
Or cattle stations.

The domestication of animals from its earliest manifestation has been a mutual activity. Animals initially cooperating with man, for the benefit of both. Whether dogs scavenging around human habitation, for food, or cattle protected from predators.

What has happened is that the pendulum has swung too far. As industrialisation and technology engulfed agriculture and fewer people worked the land. the link between humans and beast has been broken and animals are either romantised and anthromorphisized, or seen as just another raw material to be exploited with out regard to the quality of their life. We need to move the balance back the other way.

Life in the wild is no bed of roses. Animals rarely live to old age as they succumb to injury, disease, starvation or predation, or a combination of these. What humans offer animals are protection from all these. Medical treatment for injury and illness, or it that is impossible, a quick death, food in times of scarcity, protection from predation, but a quick and sudden death at a time of our choosing. An apex predator, protects animals from the suffering of over population. Currently in most cases humans are the apex predator, and why not?

What we need to do is move back to is treating animals with humanity in life, giving them living conditions that meet their basic needs and breeding out overbred characteristics that can make their lives a burden, such as huge milk yields from dairy cows.

It will make meat and dairy products, more scarce and more expensive, but there is a big enough range of foodstuffs in the world for no one to die of starvation or malnutrition. Humans have succeeded because they are omnivores, who learnt to cook, and i do not think this will ever change.

The outback would be like it was before Europeans took sheep there.

I know, but Australia's a big place - and the majority isn't very fertile. What would happen to the outback, if there weren't any sheep?

And vineyards 🍷 of course!

Somehow or other, I don't think Australia will be swapping sheep for cabbages any time soon!

Cattle stations are huge too, but some farms do grow cabbages!! There are thousands of smaller fruit and vegetables farms which grow millions of tonnes of produce, some of which is exported.

Yes, we're lucky in a developed country that we do have a choice - a vast choice. If we were fighting to survive, we'd probably eat anything.

I don't know that much about grazing lands, but I do know that farmers have developed a harmonious eco-system over the years and have farmed like that for centuries. Much grazing land just couldn't sustain arable farming, so animals such as sheep and goats do a wonderful job. Somehow or other, I don't think Australia will be swapping sheep for cabbages any time soon!

but we're omnivores and that's how we've evolved

Yes, we did.
We all have a choice too, I hope.

The carbon footprint of grass farms is significantly lower than that of farms where cereal crops are grown to feed animals. Grassland helps capture and store carbon so less is released into the air to harm the atmosphere. Grazing animals return nutrients and organic matter back to the ground as they deposit their dung, ensuring the soil remains healthy and fertile.

It's amazing how much carbon grass can store.

PPS. As I mentioned on another thread, one of my current interests is 18th and 19th century farming and rural life (which includes changes in crop rotation - especially turnips ).

Callistemon21

Thanks, growstuff, for your informed contributions to the thread.

I'd like to be more informed .

A friend of mine is a commercial market gardener (the one who provides me with veg for most of the year).

He really knows his stuff and writes for gardening magazines and academic papers, so I assume he is some kind of expert. All his growing is organic, he's passionate about the environment and is more or less a veggie himself.

He's the organiser of a community allotment and has his own business setting up allotments for wealthy people who want to live "The Good Life". None of his projects make money - the community allotment relies on a grant from the council and the wealthy customers pay for their own gardens.

He doesn't grow many "normal" crops - most of it consists of unusual cultivars, loved by foodies. He reckons it's just not worth growing mainstream veggies. Consequently, the veg I get from him is always organic and I sometimes have some weird stuff, which I'd pay a fortune for in a restaurant. (I also get veg from my Friday free hand out).

I've had many discussions with him about the sustainability of food and he would agree that the way he gardens couldn't be upscaled for commercial purposes, especially in different areas of the world with different climate and soil conditions.

We can all do our bit, eg, eliminate waste, eat locally and seasonally (which means avoiding soy and quinoa), eat less beef (although that also means less milk/yoghurt, which is a staple for many people), treat our animals better, have fewer children, etc. but we're omnivores and that's how we've evolved.

PS. My friend is the "informed" one - I'm just repeating what he's told me over the years.