Puzzled about 'kidnapping' lambs

Sustainable organic farming includes livestock. Pasture-only raised cattle, like those on Knepp Farm and on other farms using unimproved pasture, with the only supplementary feeding coming from on-farm hay are environmentally neutral.

The carbon footprint of grass farms is significantly lower than that of farms where cereal crops are grown to feed animals. Grassland helps capture and store carbon so less is released into the air to harm the atmosphere. Grazing animals return nutrients and organic matter back to the ground as they deposit their dung, ensuring the soil remains healthy and fertile.

Vegetarian/ vegan and organic / sustainability can work together. People are not forced to eat 'ready meals' (vegan or not) full of non-organic or chemicals. Just does not have to happen.

Organic farmers are indeed not necessarily vegan - has never been argued.

I've never advocated for everyone to become vegan. I merely point out sustainable, organic farming exists in the UK. Beans, lentils, nuts, quinoa can provide protein - not all UK based.

If people like meat, perhaps chickens are an alternative to beef - lower carbon footprint. Healthier in terms of fat and calories. Sustainable free rage chicken farming exists.

Thanks, growstuff, for your informed contributions to the thread.

Norah People couldn't live healthily solely from the products of that farm.

Incidentally, the four crop system was introduced, so that animals became part of the rotation and could be over-wintered.

There was a slip in my previous post. I meant animal not organic.

Norah Soya cannot be grown on a commercial scale in the UK. Well-meaning vegans eating quinoa have forced peasants in the Andes into starvation because they can no longer afford a staple crop. Without meat and dairy, the UK couldn't produce enough protein and fat, so we would need to rely on imports and air miles.

Some of the poorest people on earth rely on animal agriculture for survival. The land they farm is too barren for crops, so they rely on a few animals for meat, milk/yoghurt and eggs. If they are lucky enough to have sheep, they can sell the wool.

Much of the land surrounding where I live is chalk, as is a band across southern England. Yields would be much lower without the addition of animal fertiliser, which has been part of the rotation system for hundreds of years.

What about the land currently grazed by sheep and goats, on which almost nothing except grass will grow?

If everybody in the world were to become vegan, there would have to be a massive shift against current practices. The world's population has never been vegan within any timespan which can be studied.

Organic farmers use animal manure as fertiliser. Organic farmers are not vegan, many rely on a mixed arable and animal regime to keep the soil fertile.

farming farm products

Near farmers raise their crops in rotation - sugar beets, onions, grains, beans, potatoes - organically. Organic sustainable farming, to my knowledge, never claimed to overly protein dense, apart from legumes/ lentils?

Soya, legumes, nuts, seeds, quinoa, lentils, beans - all exist as organic products/ food stuffs - available to purchase.

Many near farms are organic, not all the growers are all organic - yet.

www.eastsuffolkproduce.co.uk/

JamesFoskettFarms

Serious concerns they aren't being dished up with a nice dollop of mint sauce right now?

The animal-rights zealots who snatched three lambs from the Royal Sandringham estate are facing demands to disclose where they are being held, amid serious concerns for their welfare.

three women are on police bail.

Norah

Katie59

Norah

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

This is the problem you think that compost in garden situation can be repeated on a commercial scale to grow enough food. Before chemical fertilizers were used the crop yields were about 1/4 of todays yields, which is fine if you have a small population. To feeding the global population today is not going to be happen with organic methods

I can only assume you're not a commercial grower who rotates.

Thank you for your opinion.

Do you by any chance have any links to commercial growers who use crop rotation without using some organic manure and grow protein-rich crops to fulfil all dietary needs?

Katie59

Norah

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

This is the problem you think that compost in garden situation can be repeated on a commercial scale to grow enough food. Before chemical fertilizers were used the crop yields were about 1/4 of todays yields, which is fine if you have a small population. To feeding the global population today is not going to be happen with organic methods

I can only assume you're not a commercial grower who rotates.

Thank you for your opinion.

I chatted to someone yesterday who tried, unsuccessfully, to explain quantum physics to me! There is so much scientific stuff going on that we don’t know about. It gave me hope for the future of the planet if people can pool their knowledge and work together. He said that, because of AI technology there’s talk of a worldwide National wage because people will be redundant in a way not seen since the Industrial Revolution.

The whole point of these actions is to raise public awareness. What's more disruptive, the protests - or the end of civilisation as we know it, mass starvation and the death of the planet?

These protests are contributing absolutely nothing towards public awareness. And, if their demands were met then mass starvation and the end of this planet would be assured.

The people who are both increasing public awareness and understanding as well as making positive steps to combat planet collapse are the scientists and technologists that are developing means of producing more and more power from renewable resources and designing machinery that is used on homes and factories that use less fuel, people developing techniques to make houses better insulated.

The UK has cut greenhouse gas emissions by 41% since 1990. eciu.net/analysis/briefings/uk-energy-policies-and-prices/uk-energy-and-emissions The power sector has cut emissions by 65% through replacing coal-fired generators www.energy-uk.org.uk/insights/electricity-generation/ and overall we are consuming less energy than in 1998 [[www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/ukenergyhowmuchwhattypeandwherefrom/2016-08-15}]

What contribution to these major reductions in emissions and development of the technology that enables this have any of puerile prats with their toddler tantrums made? They are incapable of even producing a coherent plan of how they think their demands could be met in their time scales. without bringing the country to a complete halt and plunging it into a complete economic breakdown with hospitals ceasing to operate, people starving in the streets with a complete breakdown of public order.

Norah

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

This is the problem you think that compost in garden situation can be repeated on a commercial scale to grow enough food. Before chemical fertilizers were used the crop yields were about 1/4 of todays yields, which is fine if you have a small population. To feeding the global population today is not going to be happen with organic methods

Hetty58

Unkind? I don't think so. The lambs look about ten weeks old, so would only have a few more weeks to live before being slaughtered - to end up on plates with a bit of mint sauce. Now, that's unkind! At least those three were rescued.

The orange powder on the show garden looks pretty harmless too, probably would wash off in the next shower.

The whole point of these actions is to raise public awareness. What's more disruptive, the protests - or the end of civilisation as we know it, mass starvation and the death of the planet?

The public are very well ‘aware’ of these issues but the idiot protesters should use the democratic process to get their message across. Who voted for them? Why don’t they do something constructive like working for one of the charities? They don’t because that would involve a bit of hard work!

Hetty58

Katie59, how can you possibly believe such rubbish. Did you read my link (probably not) and do you think 14 hours travel is fine? Do you think all drivers follow the regulations - pathetic as they are?

People who kid themselves that higher welfare, free range, grass fed etc. anything means cruelty free need to wake up. Animal farming is barbaric and cruel - just more or less so.

I'm hoping (and praying) the current efforts to develop lab grown meat are successfully scaled up to factory production. As a vegan, I still have absolutely no objection to it, as no animal has to die - or suffer more than the equivalent of a blood test. It will be so efficient, growing muscle meat only, that lower prices should ensure it's success.

Well said Hetty58!

Katie59 no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

It's a bit like the garden. We don't use much fertiliser, none most of the time. Our gardens are glorious! Tomatoes are plentiful.

However, I save banana skins, grind them in water and douse some plants. I spray washingup liquid 2 t in a jug of water on roses - for aphids. I dump coffee grounds around 100s of azaleas, tea leaf on hydrangeas. Etc.

Katie59

Norah

Katie59 if you did eliminate livestock there would be no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

Yes, The magic of crop rotation, plowing under, and clover.

Sustainable farming exists, always has.

No it doesn’t if you did that you could grow half a crop every 4 yrs.

There is no hope for anyone who believes that you are so bound up in your own blindness reality does not exist.

I suspect you don't live in a county with large acreages of sustainable farming, crop rotation, and successful yields.

I'm not at all blind to rotating each 1/4 parcel of the land to a different crop every year (always something growing). In fact I know crop rotation works to erosion, insect and weed pests, soil health.

Thank you for asking.

Norah

Katie59 if you did eliminate livestock there would be no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

Yes, The magic of crop rotation, plowing under, and clover.

Sustainable farming exists, always has.

No it doesn’t if you did that you could grow half a crop every 4 yrs.

There is no hope for anyone who believes that you are so bound up in your own blindness reality does not exist.

Katie59, how can you possibly believe such rubbish. Did you read my link (probably not) and do you think 14 hours travel is fine? Do you think all drivers follow the regulations - pathetic as they are?

People who kid themselves that higher welfare, free range, grass fed etc. anything means cruelty free need to wake up. Animal farming is barbaric and cruel - just more or less so.

I'm hoping (and praying) the current efforts to develop lab grown meat are successfully scaled up to factory production. As a vegan, I still have absolutely no objection to it, as no animal has to die - or suffer more than the equivalent of a blood test. It will be so efficient, growing muscle meat only, that lower prices should ensure it's success.

Katie59 if you did eliminate livestock there would be no organic manure to support organic crops, so what is going to make crops grow magic?

Yes, The magic of crop rotation, plowing under, and clover.

Sustainable farming exists, always has.

Katie59

Norah

Gillycats Eat meat, fine, but don’t try and say the animals don’t suffer because they do. As does the environment.

Environmental damage from meat production is frightful. I suspect animal farming is not sustainable much longer. My opinion.

You are talking rubbish Norah animals transported in the UK suffer no more than commuters on the trains there are strict rules that hauler have to follow.
Water is provided during the journeys, food and rest if it happens to be a long one, the journey does not harm them at all.

Rubbish to you. My opinion is different to yours.

I believe animal treatment to be horrible in many instances.

Thank you.

I found this from 2018

www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/coombe-farm-statement-animal-equality-1945507

I shall check if we buy in that area again. We've only shopped there once, on holiday, needing decent food for our daughters, GC and pets.