Cancel Culture or Free Speech

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I am amazed that you cannot see that the TWAW phrase is patriarchal?

Of course it isn't it's intersectional feminist!
To explain. Feminism became at one point very restrictive, it was led by and catered for white middle class women. In order to deal with this and open the movement up to more women we accepted that there are levels of privilege and levels of oppression, and these differed between women. So black women suffer more oppression that white women, working class women suffer more oppression than upper class women. It was then easy to include in the movement transwomen who also suffer oppression. Although the levels of oppression are different, the oppression we suffer as women is common to us all and the oppression intersects- hence intersectional feminism Theres a diagram
This is worth reading
www.womankind.org.uk/intersectionality-101-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-important/

The obvious reason for error

The use of "son" and "he" throughout the article

Another expression of bias

I said son, that was an error I apologise for

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202306/medium-741019-screenshot-20230604-113544.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202306/medium-680084-screenshot-20230604-113358.png

First example father states that all autistic individuals follow the same pattern developmentally

This is false

Second example father says "autism and fragile mental health" with no allowance that the sons fragile mental health is not directly related to autism

This is also false

Both parents were opposed to their child's treatment as was stated in the article and this lack of support is a possible cause for their child's fragile mental state...

Unacknowledged completely in this article that doesn't seem to deem a 21 year old as able to contribute their own opinion on the subject or any autistic trans person at all... The writer has instead sought out a detransitioner for comment only which shows bias

Doodledog
You have consistently on all these threads accused me of twisting or misconstruing what you have said that was why I referred to "your personal favourite".
I do accuse you to twisting (not so much misconstruing) because you do it all the time. The 'Gotcha!' is your trademark. All the same, in this case, as I asked you to give me an example, and you replied with the one about biological women, it is not unreasonable for me to assume that the two things were linked. Is it any wonder that you are 'misconstrued' if you use random examples as replies to specific questions. That is how misunderstandings arise.

Asfor the some people I leave you to search through the thread. Quite frankly it neither amuses me or concerns me enough to bother.
No need for examples, as I wasn't asking for them. I was pointing out that (a) it is pointless to throw about general accusations, and (b) that there is good reason for All People to return to points that haven't been answered - not for purposes of 'hounding', but to stop propaganda drops from standing unchallenged, and to progress the conversation.

I will now not answer any more of your posts on these minutiae, it is boring.
Oh, I agree. But being bored is a price that sometimes has to be paid to prevent constant lies being told about how one 'side' in these discussions is the victim of the other. I object to the sniping and allegations of bullying (and more) that are thrown at anyone who disagrees with the TWAW point of view, and do sometimes feel the need to show them for what they are.

My original post on this topic only covered the first 9 pages of what was then a thread of 25 pages or so. There are many further examples (including my being told I was 'pathetic', 'desperate' and more), yet it is we who are accused of personal insults.

I'm not expecting you to care about any of that, but other people reading the threads can now see that your allegations don't stack up, which is, frankly, more important to me.

Can you give actual examples VS because having read the article I see nothing that supports what you've posted.

What I'm saying is actually all there in the article and the article was the context for my responses

When you make statements that are all encompassing nobody knows who you are talking about.
Parents of children with additional needs are like other parents, good and bad, the hundreds of families I worked with mostly fought like tigers for the needs of their children to be met, often fighting against organisations who have much greater access to finance etc. That's without adding in things like English as a second language and so forth.

who exactly is blaming autism VS? What are they being blamed for and who is trying to make those with autism "feel bad about themselves"?

The father in the article hasn't blamed his son's autism or from what I read, attempted to "unshoulder any responsibility" toward his son's mental health "by blaming autism".

He's referred to his autism and mental health issues. There's nothing in the article that even suggests that those with autism are more likely to self harm or commit suicide.

There's also nothing to suggest that this father hasn't tried too and doesn't continue to support his son.

Galaxy

That's good as I am not making people with autism feel bad about themselves.

Sorry but why have you related this to yourself when I'm speaking about the article?

Can we talk about what I'm saying about the article or can you not agree with my problems with it because you agree with the father on his child's transition?

Galaxy

We know about the co comorbidities, it was one of the issues at the tavistock, that the focus was on affirming gender and not a proper focus on the other very serious issues.

I agree Galaxy helping the children with their mental health should have taken priority over gender affirmation.

VioletSky Blaming parents is a cop out, all the parents I know who have neurodivergent children are well aware of their children’s needs along with their weaknesses.

They fight like tigers for their children on a daily basis.

That's good as I am not making people with autism feel bad about themselves.

I won't stand back and allow blame towards autism for society making autistic people feel bad about themselves

Or allow parents to unshoulder any responsibility towards their child's mental health by blaming autism, when they have direct negative impact on their child's mental health

We know about the co comorbidities, it was one of the issues at the tavistock, that the focus was on affirming gender and not a proper focus on the other very serious issues.

The legal case around refuges is about creating one, just one, single sex refuge in a particular area.

The other issues is self harm

It's easy to say that people with autism are more likely to self harm or suicide

But self harm is not autism

People with autism are more likely to have other comorbid conditions like depression and anxiety, these are what lead to self harming behaviours

So instead of making it appear that autism itself causes self harm it would be far more productive to look at comorbid conditions that cause self harm and reducing the incidence of depression and anxiety in autistic people.

The actual cause of depression and anxiety matters. Yes autistic people may experience depression and anxiety because social and emotional problems or sensory issues but that depression and anxiety can also come from the exact same sources as anyone else. A parent not supporting them as one possible scenario

there is evidence that some women do not object to transwomen being included in them
But yesterday at 22:25. you said
But that is how democracy works. Decisions are taken on the basis of what the majority want. So if the majority of women want a space to be single sex it should be so.
Your posts remind me of that earlier video tennis game, where the ball always changed direction.

Here's what Kathleen Stock says about it :

"Other supportive students in Oxford, neither feminist nor anti-feminist, just seemed fed up with being emotionally blackmailed into stifled silence by a small group of childish and histrionic narcissists — among which they doubtless would include the occasional lecturer. And from within each Union, the committee members responsible for inviting me were totally impressive, standing resolute against pressure and showing exemplary resilience in the face of harsh criticism from some peers."

unherd.com/2023/06/the-oxford-kids-are-alright/

Yeah my husband is autistic and I have spent 20 plus years working with children with autism.

Doodledog

*I don't think I accused you of twisting anything. I simply said things were twisted*.

But you did .

You
And (Your own favourite) Twisting what people say is not acceptable
Me
Show me where I have twisted, and I will respond. If not, please withdraw your ‘own personal favourite’ comment, as it is deeply unfair and insulting.

Your reply to that was that you had been taken out of context in the 'biological woman' part of the discussion, so given the context that your example was in reply to a request to show me where I had done it, I assumed that it was aimed at me. Maybe your own grasp of context is a bit shaky?

Demands to questions are often made by the same people on GN.
Are these 'same people' the same people as Some People? Why not grasp the nettle instead of the continual insinuations that all of the so-called 'gender critical' posters do it? We are individuals, not a herd, and these blanket accusations just cause ill feeling.

In case you missed it though, here is my earlier response to the fact that there are times when Many People do feel the need to remind others that there has been no answer to a specific question:
They are not demands. How do you think debate works? The idea is not that people come along, post a vague opinion and leave it at that. Someone else comes along and responds, either by agreeing, disagreeing or asking for more information, and the conversation continues. Someone just dropping in a quick insult and running is always going to be called on it. How can anyone respond to ‘She was a meanie and said bad things’ without knowing what they were, and where, and in what context, they were said?
Do you see things differently? What is your definition of ‘debate’?
Perhaps you could answer that, instead of repeating that Some People 'demand' answers?

Doodledog
You have consistently on all these threads accused me of twisting or misconstruing what you have said that was why I referred to "your personal favourite".

Asfor the some people I leave you to search through the thread. Quite frankly it neither amuses me or concerns me enough to bother.

I will now not answer any more of your posts on these minutiae, it is boring.

Glorianny I am amazed that you cannot see that the TWAW phrase is patriarchal?

Autism as an umbrella descriptive word is being replaced by neurodiversity.

We have several family members who come under this umbrella each one presents differently.

I don't agree that the article does portray autism as a black and white issue. The father is talking from his perspective of his personal experience with his son as the one who now regrets the decision for gender reassignment surgery.

Anyone considering such drastic and life changing decisions needs to be properly counselled, and even more so for someone with any condition that may impair their ability to make informed decisions.

Galaxy

We cant be voting on consent it's not how it works. They are saying no. I am not enforcing my views on you, you are absolutely free to share spaces with men, as long as the men consent of course. But including men in single sex spaces removes that consent from women who due to many reasons do not want to share space with men.
As for create your own space, well ok we can do that again if we have to, we have done it before, but they would be single sex spaces which is what you seem to be complaining about.

But who decides what is a single sex space Galaxy? They won't just emerge out of nowhere.
As far as changing rooms and toilets go, walk into any modern educational establishment and you will find an open area with cubicles, some marked male, some marked female and some marked with both signs. I will not and cannot know who is using the ones marked for women, but as they are cubicles I don't need to know. Changing rooms also provide similar demarcations.
If you are referring to women's refuges there is evidence that some women do not object to transwomen being included in them. Are you saying those women have no right to say that? Providing some single sex provision should be done, but there is no reason why there shouldn't be differing conditions in different refuges.

I'm not asking anyone to create any space, simply that the women using those spaces should be respected and not have other people running their lives. It isn't good to swap male patriarchal conditions for female ones.

Galaxy

I wish people would be more careful how they speak about Autistic people, especially the parents

Autism is an umbrella condition, not a one size fits all diagnosis when it comes to statements about development

Plenty of people with autism have been living life independently and successfully from age 18 and sometimes younger

Some people with autism will never be able to live life independently

It's not as black and white as this article and others like it try to say