Cancel Culture or Free Speech

Why do you feel the need to put labels on people?

I don't. You said that you don't use 'cis' because people don't like it, and I was affording you the same courtesy. You do use 'GC' however, despite being asked not to by several people who do not identify as such. It is impossible to do right by you, as you oppose any attempt to do so.

I knew what you meant Doodledog, I just wanted to avoid any misunderstanding with my own posts.

GrannyRose15

Doodledog

That’s right Dickens, and the transpeople in the programme were all articulate and appeared to be living happily as their chosen sex. It was the students who showed disrespect and hatred to Stock - one made a point of expressing this before Stock even had a chance to speak in a debate about no-platforming and whether holders of all beliefs had a right to be heard. I think that was at Cambridge. You could see that she was shaken by it. So rude.

I may be misremembering some of the detail (GrannyRose might be able to correct me here if necessary), but from memory there was a transwoman (older than student age) who accepted that he was male, but wanted to ‘live as’ a woman, although realised that this concept (‘living as’ a woman) was meaningless. I’m not sure which pronouns he used, although he probably didn’t mind (and yes, I am making assumptions but I don’t remember) and he did refer to himself as having a male voice. He talked about how he’d been in the Ladies talking to a female friend through a cubicle wall and realised that if a woman had come in and heard his voice she would have been scared. He was so much more socially aware and considerate of others than the self-obsessed students deriding Stock, and accepted that everyone had to feel safe around one another. I think he was the one who is good friends with a radical lesbian who absolutely rejects the idea that TWAW, as each is able to respect the other’s point of view.

Another transwoman (who I think was a student - very young, anyway) said that the noise around so-called ‘gender’ issues made it difficult to live a normal life, as the temptation was to stay as inconspicuous as possible. Maybe as time goes by that will change, and possibly moving away from the febrile atmosphere of the university will make things easier. I hope so.

There were transmen too - including one who talked about having to give up on the idea of having children in order to transition, and how much of a sacrifice that had been, but set against the imperative of doing so there was no real choice.

All of these people were thoughtful, intelligent and confident. None of them questioned their right to be anything other than who they are (rightly) but there was none of the shouting and disregard for others in evidence in the supposedly educational environment of the universities. There has always been a certain amount of arrogance and absolute certainty surrounding youth (specially privileged youth), and maybe as the students mature they will mellow as most of us have. What remains to be seen, and what the programme didn’t explore, however, is whether the (unspecified) forces behind the extremism will capture future generations and indoctrinate them, too. If not, there is hope for a proper discussion and negotiated way forward, but that is unlikely to happen if the activists continue to silence contrary voices.

I recommend the programme to anyone who missed it. Is that a fair summary GrannyRose (or anyone else who saw it)?

Yes I think you’ve done a good summary. We’ll worth a watch.

GrannyRose15 did you see the link I posted to a blog from the trans people who appeared in this documentary. They complained about being misled nd misrepresented.
www.thepinknews.com/2023/05/28/gender-wars-documentary-channel-4-trans-non-binary-backlash/
They were unhappy with some of the implied links between transpeople and violence among other things.

That's the problem you see, I have been called many things, but any comment from me is regarded as aggressive and abusive. I don't want to be called anything. I am not a member of a movement. As I said before I simply find discrimination unacceptable. Why do you feel the need to put labels on people?

Doodledog

That’s right Dickens, and the transpeople in the programme were all articulate and appeared to be living happily as their chosen sex. It was the students who showed disrespect and hatred to Stock - one made a point of expressing this before Stock even had a chance to speak in a debate about no-platforming and whether holders of all beliefs had a right to be heard. I think that was at Cambridge. You could see that she was shaken by it. So rude.

I may be misremembering some of the detail (GrannyRose might be able to correct me here if necessary), but from memory there was a transwoman (older than student age) who accepted that he was male, but wanted to ‘live as’ a woman, although realised that this concept (‘living as’ a woman) was meaningless. I’m not sure which pronouns he used, although he probably didn’t mind (and yes, I am making assumptions but I don’t remember) and he did refer to himself as having a male voice. He talked about how he’d been in the Ladies talking to a female friend through a cubicle wall and realised that if a woman had come in and heard his voice she would have been scared. He was so much more socially aware and considerate of others than the self-obsessed students deriding Stock, and accepted that everyone had to feel safe around one another. I think he was the one who is good friends with a radical lesbian who absolutely rejects the idea that TWAW, as each is able to respect the other’s point of view.

Another transwoman (who I think was a student - very young, anyway) said that the noise around so-called ‘gender’ issues made it difficult to live a normal life, as the temptation was to stay as inconspicuous as possible. Maybe as time goes by that will change, and possibly moving away from the febrile atmosphere of the university will make things easier. I hope so.

There were transmen too - including one who talked about having to give up on the idea of having children in order to transition, and how much of a sacrifice that had been, but set against the imperative of doing so there was no real choice.

All of these people were thoughtful, intelligent and confident. None of them questioned their right to be anything other than who they are (rightly) but there was none of the shouting and disregard for others in evidence in the supposedly educational environment of the universities. There has always been a certain amount of arrogance and absolute certainty surrounding youth (specially privileged youth), and maybe as the students mature they will mellow as most of us have. What remains to be seen, and what the programme didn’t explore, however, is whether the (unspecified) forces behind the extremism will capture future generations and indoctrinate them, too. If not, there is hope for a proper discussion and negotiated way forward, but that is unlikely to happen if the activists continue to silence contrary voices.

I recommend the programme to anyone who missed it. Is that a fair summary GrannyRose (or anyone else who saw it)?

Yes I think you’ve done a good summary. We’ll worth a watch.

Yes, I meant that I don't use the term to refer to people on here. I don't swear at people on here, or call them pathetic either, even when they are behaving in an aggressive and abusive manner. Manners are free, as my mother would say.

If I refer to TRA I'm referring to those who behave in an aggressive and abusive manner and always make that clear.

I'm against discrimination as is everyone I see posting on these threads.

transactivist seems to cover anyone who speaks up against discrimination

I don't use TRA, but I have asked several times what you and the others would like to be called, but have been ignored. I don't say 'supporters', as that implies that the rest of us are not supportive, which is untrue. I have been told not to use 'allies', so I don't. I will ask again - what would you like to be called, when people are speaking about you in the plural, as obviously I would use your name when addressing you directly.

Mollygo

I’m not the one speculating and stressing about highly unlikely scenarios.
Was your scenario of parents choosing to bring their children up as intersex highly unlikely?
Was your scenario of the mother bringing her child up to suit herself and having pressure to stop it put on her by her husband and family was an unlikely scenario?

And you don’t respond to the comment about your body making the choice about how you develop, no matter how you feel or have been brought up* I wonder why not..

At what age would you give the child the right to choose? Before puberty? After puberty?
What steps would you take to make sure they get their choice?

That actually happened Mollygo
As for a child making a decision. I've met 10 year olds who are quite mature and 20 year olds who aren't. I'd be happy with Gillick competence.
Not my problem. Not my decision.
No rules just consideration and compassion and a lot of love.

Iam64

Well - catching up with this discussion was demoralising. I was particularly surprised to see your summary of what left and right mean glory. I know you deny Stalin was left wing, on the basis he wasn’t kind but I found your ideas on what being left means just a bit Stalinist.

The twisting of words and belief systems by trans activists is oppressive

Well post your own. I'm by no means an expert and I only post my own beliefs. If they don't suit tell me yours.
I said Stalin was a monster.
As has been asked before what is a transactivist?
I'm asked not to call people cis women or TERFs and I don't do so. Because I'm kind and understanding, but transactivist seems to cover anyone who speaks up against discrimination.

Iam64

Well - catching up with this discussion was demoralising. I was particularly surprised to see your summary of what left and right mean glory. I know you deny Stalin was left wing, on the basis he wasn’t kind but I found your ideas on what being left means just a bit Stalinist.

The twisting of words and belief systems by trans activists is oppressive

Thank you, Iam.

It really is like plaiting fog at times.

I’m not the one speculating and stressing about highly unlikely scenarios.
Was your scenario of parents choosing to bring their children up as intersex highly unlikely?
Was your scenario of the mother bringing her child up to suit herself and having pressure to stop it put on her by her husband and family was an unlikely scenario?

And you don’t respond to the comment about your body making the choice about how you develop, no matter how you feel or have been brought up* I wonder why not..

At what age would you give the child the right to choose? Before puberty? After puberty?
What steps would you take to make sure they get their choice?

Well - catching up with this discussion was demoralising. I was particularly surprised to see your summary of what left and right mean glory. I know you deny Stalin was left wing, on the basis he wasn’t kind but I found your ideas on what being left means just a bit Stalinist.

The twisting of words and belief systems by trans activists is oppressive

Individuals with DSDs do not need to be brought into the debate but where they wish a voice they should be listened to

As I posted earlier

Other examples exist

In the same way that Kathleen stock cannot speak for all women or even all gender critical feminists we cannot categorically say any demographic want/do not want something

That may be a form of stereotyping but I'm not sure that's the right word

This is why I only speak for myself and so should others

Especially when the danger of speaking for each other means aligning with extreme elements and allowing debate to become hostile by not standing by our own principles because we believe numbers add strength

That's never been true and allowing others to speak for us as individuals in less than polite terms weakens our own arguments

Mollygo

So you agree that it would be the parents’ choice that the baby would be brought up intersex, not the baby’s.
You agree that parents wanting a certain sex child have the same rights as the parents wanting intersex, to bring the child up as their preferred sex and you don’t think that’s abuse?

You don’t care how the child might feel about having been brought up as the wrong sex, and the problems the child might face when they get older.
If it wasn’t abuse in the example you gave, why did her husband and family put pressure on her to stop.

At what age would you give the child the right to choose? Before puberty? After puberty?
What steps would you take to make sure they get their choice?
Those were valid examples BUT they don’t suit, so you can’t cope.

Oh I can cope MollygoI m not the one speculating and stressing about highly unlikely scenarios

So you agree that it would be the parents’ choice that the baby would be brought up intersex, not the baby’s.
You agree that parents wanting a certain sex child have the same rights as the parents wanting intersex, to bring the child up as their preferred sex and you don’t think that’s abuse?

You don’t care how the child might feel about having been brought up as the wrong sex, and the problems the child might face when they get older.
If it wasn’t abuse in the example you gave, why did her husband and family put pressure on her to stop.

At what age would you give the child the right to choose? Before puberty? After puberty?
What steps would you take to make sure they get their choice?
Those were valid examples BUT they don’t suit, so you can’t cope.

Between 8.5% and 20%.

Yes it is entirely different icanhandthamback which is maybe why as was posted on the last thread, many don't want it to be brought into the trans gender debate.

I agree that the difficulties they face should be reflected in any conversation, which is so much more than a 'feeling' and why IMO their inclusion in the trans debate shouldn't be happening.

Has anyone said they are not valid and not deserving of respect?

But obviously whether someone is trans, has DSDs or both, they are absolutely valid and deserve respect

People with DSDs show that biological sex is not black and white

Especially when science has discovered 21 differences in 17 genes in trans people

Which means there is a possibility biological sex is more of a spectrum and trans people are somewhere along that spectrum and some aspect of their biology is the cause for gender dysphoria

Some people with DSDs, I believe someone posted already as 20% also suffer gender dysphoria

Isn't Intersex entirely different from identifying as a particular gender? Perhaps the way we handle the issues of being intersex, like the right to choose when one is old enough, should be changed to reflect the difficulties but that is very different from gender identification in general.

Mollygo

^What many intersex people want is to be assigned intersex at birth and allowed to grow up and make their own decisions about whether or not they feel more male or more female or prefer to remain non binary.^

Wow! Are you saying that babies can now make decisions straight from the womb?
The decision would be made by someone else, to suit what that person wants.
You obviously think that is right.
I don’t.
I’d be concerned that the decision making parent would influence the child to be what the parent wanted, and worse, would take steps, chemical or physical to make that happen. We’ve already seen that happen with parents/mermaids and the Tavistock clinic pushing children in to irreversible actions before they are old enough to understand the future ramifications of their actions.

All the people you mention above are already grown past the baby or young child stage. This is now saying they have the right to make decisions for other people. So if (as has happened) a parent decided they wanted a boy, would you say they have the same rights as the intersex people you mention, to make decisions on behalf of the baby and raise their girl as a boy until the child is old enough to decide for themselves?

How you feel, or want to feel makes no different to your sex. It makes no difference to how your body develops unless you go down the chemical route, which will probably leave you with no way back when you feel like a change.

Let’s take an intersex girl. She’s been allowed to choose feels like a boy, and her ambition is to be a star athlete.
Everything goes well -she dresses as a boy (sexist really), is allowed to compete as a boy and then hits puberty.
Are you then advocating drug use to enhance performance? Or would you persuade the child to choose a different path that won’t be impacted by sex.

Sorry are you accusing the parents of intersex children of being more likely to abuse their children than other parents?
As far as babies go I know of someone who dressed her baby boy as a girl for as long as she could get away with it, she so wanted a girl. She had eventually after pressure from her husband and family to stop, Nothing to do with intersex just parental problems. Which are the same regardless of the baby. Abuse is abuse is abuse. Neither limited to nor linked with trans or intersex.

As for your example so many assumptions, so many what ifs. At least let's have valid or possible examples.

Many scientists would agree that biological sex is more than chromosomes and genitalia, there are also hormonal considerations, internal sex organs, external sex organs and biological sex is proven not to be clear at all on some individuals. Those are facts.

Exactly, taking the whole, you are still left with two biologically different sexes. There are known definable variations but they are few and far between and have nothing to do with gender.

VioletSky

But the essential truth is that Kathleen Stock is an expert on trans people and matters of biology in the same way my left sock is an expert on philosophy, specialising in fiction

Oh thankyou for the laugh VioletSky. It is so appreciated. That is hilarious.

What many intersex people want is to be assigned intersex at birth and allowed to grow up and make their own decisions about whether or not they feel more male or more female or prefer to remain non binary.

Wow! Are you saying that babies can now make decisions straight from the womb?
The decision would be made by someone else, to suit what that person wants.
You obviously think that is right.
I don’t.
I’d be concerned that the decision making parent would influence the child to be what the parent wanted, and worse, would take steps, chemical or physical to make that happen. We’ve already seen that happen with parents/mermaids and the Tavistock clinic pushing children in to irreversible actions before they are old enough to understand the future ramifications of their actions.

All the people you mention above are already grown past the baby or young child stage. This is now saying they have the right to make decisions for other people. So if (as has happened) a parent decided they wanted a boy, would you say they have the same rights as the intersex people you mention, to make decisions on behalf of the baby and raise their girl as a boy until the child is old enough to decide for themselves?

How you feel, or want to feel makes no different to your sex. It makes no difference to how your body develops unless you go down the chemical route, which will probably leave you with no way back when you feel like a change.

Let’s take an intersex girl. She’s been allowed to choose feels like a boy, and her ambition is to be a star athlete.
Everything goes well -she dresses as a boy (sexist really), is allowed to compete as a boy and then hits puberty.
Are you then advocating drug use to enhance performance? Or would you persuade the child to choose a different path that won’t be impacted by sex.

Galaxy

I am afraid that you get left wing monsters. Its beyond naive to think you dont. Stalin never counts in these discussions.

Well, I think we saw, in this country, how anti-semitism (racism by another name), rose under Corbyn and his oh-so-right-on lefties of Momentum...🙄