Cancel Culture or Free Speech

I think it's quite a hard lesson to realise that the left are as capable of horrendous things as the right. Its particularly difficult nowadays when our politics are entwined with our identity.

Doodledog

Anyone who is driven out of a well-paid job (or a badly-paid one for that matter) simply because of tweeting views that are not popular with extremists is a victim. I would say the same if her views did not align with mine. I don't need lists of patronising virtues to say that, as it is true.

Sorry who was "driven out"? If I chose to work in a university which had say, largely black or mixed race students, and I wrote a book which claimed different things about the slave trade and I arrived one day to find "Black Lives Matter" stickers on most doors, should I take that personally?

I am afraid that you get left wing monsters. Its beyond naive to think you dont. Stalin never counts in these discussions.

If you are interested in Cuba
www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o123/rr-5

Yep. It is as I said upthread. There is a lot of 'simplification' of the meaning of Left and Right on here.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

Can you please explain what is right wing about biological realism? Not with references to Christianity in the US or similar, but in terms of the UK situation. I just don't see how that is the case, unless you are using a very different definition of right wing from my understanding.

Left wing is about creating equality. It isn't about separating people, castigating people or demonising people.

Right wing ideology needs to create us and them. Will then tell you that "they" have more than "us" or "they" are a problem for "us". Over the years the others have been black people, gay people, the poor, women or any other group they could effectively target. Now it's trans people. (and to a certain degree immigrants,, but that is proving harder to instigate because of economics).
Right wing then blames those people for everything. Those people are dealt with, or suitably cowed into silence. Right wing then needs another target. And so it goes on.

As I thought.

So how do you explain Stalin? Castro?

Or is it just a case of LW=goodies and RW= baddies?

Stalin was a monster so not really left wing.

Castro has largely been discredited by Cuban immigrants and the American press who had an axe to grind. Most Cubans do not feel that way about him. He took a country with a largely peasant based economy reliant on the US into a country with some of the best education facilities and medical facilities in the area.
If you want to examine his record look at literacy levels in Cuba.
Look at medical aid and education from Cuba in that area.
Look at countries like Haiti devastated by US intervention
Look at what scares the US the most about Cuba, a country they attempted to isolate through sanctions which has nonetheless built medical care and shared it. Free medical care and free education terrify the US.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

Can you please explain what is right wing about biological realism? Not with references to Christianity in the US or similar, but in terms of the UK situation. I just don't see how that is the case, unless you are using a very different definition of right wing from my understanding.

Left wing is about creating equality. It isn't about separating people, castigating people or demonising people.

Right wing ideology needs to create us and them. Will then tell you that "they" have more than "us" or "they" are a problem for "us". Over the years the others have been black people, gay people, the poor, women or any other group they could effectively target. Now it's trans people. (and to a certain degree immigrants,, but that is proving harder to instigate because of economics).
Right wing then blames those people for everything. Those people are dealt with, or suitably cowed into silence. Right wing then needs another target. And so it goes on.

As I thought.

So how do you explain Stalin? Castro?

Or is it just a case of LW=goodies and RW= baddies?

Or Putin who thinks that anybody who is not heterosexual is sick.

Anyone who is driven out of a well-paid job (or a badly-paid one for that matter) simply because of tweeting views that are not popular with extremists is a victim. I would say the same if her views did not align with mine. I don't need lists of patronising virtues to say that, as it is true.

Do you mean like arm trans kids or decapitate terfs, those things that might be used to harm people. Or puberty blockers are harmless or social affirmation is harmless, those things that have been used to harm people.
Oh and doodledog is right the left have at times been responsible for repression and atrocities.

NanaDana

So as I suspected, no examples given, just a somewhat patronising suggestion that I read some obscure article where "Katherine Stock as a representative of a different view does feature". If you're going to make serious, hard accusations, please come up with some serious, hard facts to back them up, which you clearly can't. And yes, Mollygo, "flounce off" is right, when their road finally runs out, claiming as they exit that they're leaving because they can't have a "rational and polite discussion" here. I've been neither impolite nor irrational in any of my contributions, so to suggest otherwise sounds rather like "toys thrown out of cot". If that is verging on the impolite, my justification is that I'm responding, in a restrained manner, to an unpleasant and inaccurate accusation. Disappointing. I'd hoped for a more challenging discussion.

Kathleen Stock referred to transwomen as being immersed in a fiction she compared it to playing video games. Trans people are prepared to discuss most things but not the reality of their existence, that is the very nature of transphobia

She does now appear to be back pedalling a bit. But interestingly still needs to portray herself as a victim. She was apparently a victim at Sussex university for her views, and is now a victim of misunderstanding of her views. You do wonder why?

Glorianny

Doodledog

Can you please explain what is right wing about biological realism? Not with references to Christianity in the US or similar, but in terms of the UK situation. I just don't see how that is the case, unless you are using a very different definition of right wing from my understanding.

Left wing is about creating equality. It isn't about separating people, castigating people or demonising people.

Right wing ideology needs to create us and them. Will then tell you that "they" have more than "us" or "they" are a problem for "us". Over the years the others have been black people, gay people, the poor, women or any other group they could effectively target. Now it's trans people. (and to a certain degree immigrants,, but that is proving harder to instigate because of economics).
Right wing then blames those people for everything. Those people are dealt with, or suitably cowed into silence. Right wing then needs another target. And so it goes on.

As I thought.

So how do you explain Stalin? Castro?

Or is it just a case of LW=goodies and RW= baddies?

‘Fight’ is a violent word.

Thanks for the link to that article VioletSky
For the gender critical I post this
However gender critical feminists identify politically, it is clear that their viewpoints are being co-opted by those who do not have feminist interests at heart. While I am not accusing gender critical feminist of being racists, some of their allies are, and this should worry Universities who claim to prioritise equality, diversity and inclusion

For all feminists these pledges which we should all be able to make

We pledge to fight for:

The right to birth control and abortion

Equal pay and a reduction in the gender pay gap

Affordable childcare

The rights of women all over the world

The right to material security (employment, housing, food, healthcare, energy, clean water, clothes)

Children’s right to be free from discrimination, bullying and harassment

The right to education for all

We pledge to fight against:

Femicide and rape culture

Violence against all women

Violence against LGBTQ people

Toxic masculinity

Sexual harassment in the workplace

Everyday sexism

Enforced gender stereotypes

Racism

Environmental destruction

Bullying and harassment

Personally if I felt that anything I said could be used to harrass, bully or inspire violence against another human being I would think very carefully before I said it.

So as I suspected, no examples given, just a somewhat patronising suggestion that I read some obscure article where "Katherine Stock as a representative of a different view does feature". If you're going to make serious, hard accusations, please come up with some serious, hard facts to back them up, which you clearly can't. And yes, Mollygo, "flounce off" is right, when their road finally runs out, claiming as they exit that they're leaving because they can't have a "rational and polite discussion" here. I've been neither impolite nor irrational in any of my contributions, so to suggest otherwise sounds rather like "toys thrown out of cot". If that is verging on the impolite, my justification is that I'm responding, in a restrained manner, to an unpleasant and inaccurate accusation. Disappointing. I'd hoped for a more challenging discussion.

GagaJo

More to the point NanaDana and Mollygo, that it isn't possible for the GC to have a rational and polite discussion.

Goodness only knows why the brave few trans supporters bother to engage here without accusations like 'weak, ineffective attempts', 'derogatory accusations' being thrown around.

Good luck with the rest of the discussion.

So people who condone violence by trans are brave supporters?
Thanks for telling me.
Oh and those same brave supporters never make accusations about those who support females against the violence perpetrated by some trans ands fans?

The same brave supporters who then flounce off?

I must be reading different threads from you.

Have a good day everyone

More to the point NanaDana and Mollygo, that it isn't possible for the GC to have a rational and polite discussion.

Goodness only knows why the brave few trans supporters bother to engage here without accusations like 'weak, ineffective attempts', 'derogatory accusations' being thrown around.

Good luck with the rest of the discussion.

VioletSky

To answer questions and gain an understanding of my views as a trans inclusive or intersectional feminist and what constitutes transphobic dialogue, the whole article would need to be read. Kathleen stock as a representative of a different view does feature among others and the article explains what trans people and their allies will happily debate and what they should not have to as a protected characteristic under the equality act. It explains well which aspects of gender critical views are inherently transphobic even though many are simply unaware of this due to the media.

It's an interesting read and much less inflammatory and deliberately condescending and rude than articles Kathleen stock has written for Unherd.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09612025.2022.2147915

Here is the link again

I did also say she has "come across in the past as intolerant and hateful" for clarity and this explains why as do her own articles in her own words on Unherd where you will find a very deliberately provocative and rude article about "trans activists" which appears to include anyone who speaks positively about trans people. I've frequently been called a trans activists despite never having joined any kind of protest or written any public articles on the subject

Actually, what’s funny in a sick sort of way is the hate speech directed against females by some trans and their fans who are shouting about what they see as hate speech.
What is this hate speech trans are objecting to?
That you can’t change sex- that’s fact.
That a TW is male-that’s a fact.
That most females would like to keep their safe spaces free from males (who may not all be violent, but as we have been repeatedly told ^you can’t tell the difference^). That’s a fact.

On the other hand,
let’s burn her house down
or
arm trans kids
or
if you don’t let males in female safe spaces, that’s transphobic and we’ll attack you for trying to protect females
that’s hate speech and actions -and who’s doing it?

VioletSky

Except it was answered as soon as I was able to do so NanaDana

So that's not true

So where is the answer, VS? I'm really curious as to where the examples of "hatred and intolerance" can be found.

Sorry, sausage fingers mis named you again!

Namsnanny

I am, thank you

VioletSky

Namsnanny

You haven't read the article

That's ok

The answers are there if you change your mind

That's fine V if your happy with your answer so be it.

I think she is grateful for her activism in terms of single sex spaces, there are many gender critical feminists who slag Kellie Jay off if that makes you happier. Julie bindel is doing it as we speak.
I approve of the way Piers Morgan challenged the government during covid, I disagree with him on lots of other things.

Except it was answered as soon as I was able to do so NanaDana

So that's not true