Cancel Culture or Free Speech

I wondered if some of you might be interested in this poem?
Others will already have heard it read by the composer a 14 yr old Irish girl, Brandubh.

^I am not a dress to be worn on a whim,
A man in a dress is nonetheless a him.
Women are not simply what we wear.
If this offends you, I do not care.

I am not an idea in any man's mind
And my purpose in life is not to be kind
So while my rights are trampled every day of the week
I will not stand by being docile and meek.

I am not defined by sexist lies
There is more to woman than that shallow guise,
That guise of dresses, bikinis and skirts
Those clothes are not what womanhood is worth.

I am NOT a bitch, a TERF, a whore, a slag,
Hysterical, a witch, a slut, a hag.
No I am a woman, I am a female
Who will not let her rights be put up for sale

I am not defined by what men are NOT,
So to hell with cis misogynistic rot.
I am a woman, I'm not a subset of my sex.
If that makes me a dinosaur, so be it I'm a T.Rex

We are women, we are warriors of steel
Woman is something no man will ever feel
Woman is not a skill that any man can hone
Woman is our word and it is ours alone.

I'm not a bleeder nor a menstruator,
A womb carrier or uterus haver.
Those words and phrases are such a sham.
Just call me woman it is who I am.^

Isn't it powerful?

further, all decent people want to challenge racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti religious views and disability discrimination

This seems such an obvious statement but it seems to challenge those ‘some posters’ who believe they have the monopoly on these beliefs

I echo what Dickens said in her post of 11.15.06, but would like to add:

Intersectional feminism exists primarily for the inclusion of women of colour, different sexualities, different religions and different disabilities because intersectional feminism recognizes that their experience of womanhood is not the same as straight, white, able women assigned female at birth

Intersectional feminism seeks to challenge racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti religious views and disability discrimination against all it's members
But can't you see that women of various religions are not allowed to have men in female spaces, and are unable to avail themselves of those spaces if male-bodied people are there, however they 'identify'? Also, women with lesbian sexuality are often told that their sexuality doesn't exist - like male homosexuality it is 'same gender attraction' which should mean that they fancy straight men who are attracted to them, whatever their own preferences. People who are disabled (temporarily or permanently) are often in need of safe spaces, as their ability to escape or call for help may be impaired.

Far from challenging these things, a TWAW ideology actively discriminates against them, so there is no logic in what you say.

Further, all decent people want to challenge racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti religious views and disability discrimination - not just against 'members', but against anyone who might suffer from them. The suggestion that only IFs want to do this is offensive, and the qualification that they will challenge only that behaviour that is against their members suggests that the cause is less than inclusive.

Doodledog

Sadly, these threads are predictable, Dickens. It's a shame, as places like this are ideal platforms for people to share opinions. It is anonymous, so there will be no workplace repercussions, which is a consideration for many that TRAs have put in place.

I've said this before, but one of my first posts on here was in response to a thread about transwomen, with particular reference to children, and I naively asked why we didn't stop encouraging boys and girls to behave in gender-specific ways, instead of telling them that they are in the wrong bodies and pushing them to 'transition'. It was a genuine question, but the replies were rude, arrogant and unnecessary. One of the suggestions, rather than an answer to my question, was that I should 'educate myself' on the subject, so I did, and the more I read, the less I felt that affirmation of children's trans identities made sense, and I haven't changed my mind.

I have been on many 'trans threads' since then, and the same rude, insulting and arrogant assumptions that anyone disagreeing that TWAW must be stupid have persisted. There have been flounces and reappearances, there have been reports to GNHQ and requests for deletion, and worst of all, there have been accusations of bullying and 'hounding', which are simply not true. Just as an example, Glorianny claims to have been called a 'misogynistic bitch' when that is just not true. Molly said that qualifying feminism with adjectives that change its meaning so that men are included is not feminism, and that centring male rights over female ones is misogynistic (full post and quote are above on this page, so I won't paste it again).
That was not saying that Glorianny is a misogynist, and definitely not that she is a bitch (a word that I, for one, would never use against a woman - I can't speak for Molly on that, though).

I know it is tedious for people seeing sniping and retaliation, but the alternative is not to retaliate and be ground down by it, with the insults allowed to stand. I really wish more people would join in, but I understand their not wanting to enter a battlefield. Maybe if the insults stopped, more voices would be heard and the subject could be discussed rationally.

Your comments resonate with me.

I've said this before, but one of my first posts on here was in response to a thread about transwomen, with particular reference to children, and I naively asked why we didn't stop encouraging boys and girls to behave in gender-specific ways, instead of telling them that they are in the wrong bodies and pushing them to 'transition'. It was a genuine question, but the replies were rude, arrogant and unnecessary. One of the suggestions, rather than an answer to my question, was that I should 'educate myself' on the subject, so I did, and the more I read, the less I felt that affirmation of children's trans identities made sense, and I haven't changed my mind.

I did something similar (but not on here) - equally naively. It was based on my own experience as a young girl in the early fifties feeling intensely restricted both physically and emotionally by the necessity to conform to the stereotype; I not only felt resentful but began to hate my developing body because it seemed to be in league with the adult world. I attended a co-ed boarding school and, at age 13, we girls had to graduate from socks to stockings - horrible, thick, 'lisle' stockings attached to uncomfortable, badly-designed, pink, scratchy suspender belts that didn't function as they were intended. I was so incensed I formed a pressure group and tried to get the female head-teacher involved. It doesn't sound very disturbing, but wearing these items of clothing made me feel demoralised and ugly - it wasn't me.

I felt happy in some ways to be a girl - I had a crush on a couple of boys, but also - not unusual - a couple of girls, also. Fortunately, the majority of my family understood and were quite happy to indulge my preferences without raising an eyebrow.

I felt I had a vague understanding of the body dysmorphia / dysphoria often felt by young people. But I was wrong - as I was also rudely informed. No discussion about the issue on this particular SM site. If I'd had the options that are available now, I might have made choices that I'd regret later because - being allowed during the holidays to be myself and follow my interests etc, I slowly morphed into an adult happy within my own body - taking the advice from family who philosophically told me that once I'd left school, I could be whatever and whoever I wanted to be. We were graduating towards the 60s and the culture was beginning to change.

Glorianny claims to have been called a 'misogynistic bitch' when that is just not true.

I saw that. It's pretty low - giving completely the wrong impression. I can't imagine any of us calling G or anyone else a "bitch". But it sows the seeds of doubt. It's a hateful term and I'd never use it about any woman, however much I disagreed with them - I've heard it too often from men, frankly.

I doubt any future threads on this matter will ever be any different. And that's a shame because, as you indicate, we're all anonymous, and could use this platform as a useful tool for debate. But, it would appear, the matter is not actually up for debate which is why nothing will change the next tme round.

Um, well I suppose what is acceptable to the animal world perhaps isn't good for humans.

I suppose, men, being men, look on "stud" as a compliment, whereas women wouldn't see "bitch" as a compliment.

As I said, men and women process things differently.😉

Yes it was surprising to see such an obvious fabrication of the use of a particularly offensive word, and an apology should be made to all who've contributed to this thread but I don't suppose that will happen any time soon.

DiamondLily, even before I came on Gransnet and it always puzzled me why stud was used a compliment whilst bitch was an insult.

Iam64

I’ve no issue with my female spaniel being correctly referred to as a spaniel bitch. I find the use of the word bitch when describing women offensive. I’m easily offended when a group of women are discussing something and are accused of ‘bitching’

It’s a loaded word. I’m surprised to see it claimed by a poster here

Yeah, I used to show, breed and sell Lhasa Apso dogs.

I owned bitches and I used stud dogs.

I wouldn't apply the term to humans though.🙄

I’ve no issue with my female spaniel being correctly referred to as a spaniel bitch. I find the use of the word bitch when describing women offensive. I’m easily offended when a group of women are discussing something and are accused of ‘bitching’

It’s a loaded word. I’m surprised to see it claimed by a poster here

Sadly, these threads are predictable, Dickens. It's a shame, as places like this are ideal platforms for people to share opinions. It is anonymous, so there will be no workplace repercussions, which is a consideration for many that TRAs have put in place.

I've said this before, but one of my first posts on here was in response to a thread about transwomen, with particular reference to children, and I naively asked why we didn't stop encouraging boys and girls to behave in gender-specific ways, instead of telling them that they are in the wrong bodies and pushing them to 'transition'. It was a genuine question, but the replies were rude, arrogant and unnecessary. One of the suggestions, rather than an answer to my question, was that I should 'educate myself' on the subject, so I did, and the more I read, the less I felt that affirmation of children's trans identities made sense, and I haven't changed my mind.

I have been on many 'trans threads' since then, and the same rude, insulting and arrogant assumptions that anyone disagreeing that TWAW must be stupid have persisted. There have been flounces and reappearances, there have been reports to GNHQ and requests for deletion, and worst of all, there have been accusations of bullying and 'hounding', which are simply not true. Just as an example, Glorianny claims to have been called a 'misogynistic bitch' when that is just not true. Molly said that qualifying feminism with adjectives that change its meaning so that men are included is not feminism, and that centring male rights over female ones is misogynistic (full post and quote are above on this page, so I won't paste it again).
That was not saying that Glorianny is a misogynist, and definitely not that she is a bitch (a word that I, for one, would never use against a woman - I can't speak for Molly on that, though).

I know it is tedious for people seeing sniping and retaliation, but the alternative is not to retaliate and be ground down by it, with the insults allowed to stand. I really wish more people would join in, but I understand their not wanting to enter a battlefield. Maybe if the insults stopped, more voices would be heard and the subject could be discussed rationally.

Smileless2012

I'd like to know how that's acceptable too Dickens but I'm not holding my breath for an answer.

Once again Molly I agree.

There will be no answer.

We've followed a predictable course.

We say TWANW. Attempt to make people understand that this is not born of a phobia about trans people in general, or even trans women - we just don't want male-bodied TW in our intimate spaces.

Then, in spite of anything we say to the contrary, we are accused of transphobia and other implications like siding with the extreme right, etc, etc, etc.

VS appears in order to tell us we're being disrespectful of trans people; that she's all for polite and respectful debate, and as far as she's concerned, TWAW.

We engage, we reject, explain again (and again) - new accusations fly around...

... and finally, those who've made the most accusations, some totally unfounded, bow out. Not with any grace - they bow out because we've driven them away, apparently, by saying something unforgiveable, after being goaded with supercilious and snidey observations.

I'm reminded of one of my favourite quatrains from Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.


Though I think this was written about Religious thought and Science.

It's all a bit Alice Through the Looking Glass, where reality is ignored, and it's what some just want it to be.

Forget the clothing, presentation and genitals. I just think that, through my life, I've known a lot of biological men - relatives, friends, colleagues, husbands, boyfriends etc.

In my view, women and men have different thought processes.

However much biological men, or their cheerleaders, delude themselves, or others, they cannot think and process things as biological women, and vice versa.

We can hold the same views on certain things, but nature has designed us to think differently.

And all the hash-tag causes in the world won't change that.🙄

I'd like to know how that's acceptable too Dickens but I'm not holding my breath for an answer.

Once again Molly I agree.

I just knew she hadn’t left.
For the record, no intersectional feminist is misogynistic
No feminist is misogynistic
Any feminist, with or without a label, who puts male rights before female rights, whether the males are trans-women or not is misogynistic.
Since my only experience of intersectional feminist is posters on Gransnet, and I have explained what I think you do that is supporting males not females, you can only assure me that not all IF are misogynistic. It’s only the ones I experience on here.

Smileless2012 Tue 06-Jun-23 11:44:05

No of course a trans woman's experience of life isn't the same as a natal woman's Dicken's, how can it possibly be? VS didn't specify what other kinds of feminism refuse to accept trans women's identity which came as no surprise. I've never come across any and was genuinely interested in seeing specific examples.

I was rather hoping VS would acknowledge that - or explain why she disagreed with the premise.

As a feminist (with no pre-fix), I want to know how it is acceptable to accommodate a biological male in a dress (or whatever female attire is chosen - a dress isn't necessarily the first choice) telling a biological woman, what a woman is. Basically re-defining womanhood, and doing so in a way that (a) prioritises his needs, and (b) insists - going against basic biology - that there is "no debate" about it.

What do you mean "I may have added the bitch" you did and that post you've quoted once again has not been ignored Glorianny it's just that not everyone agrees with your interpretation of it and that is the nature of debate.

No, your approach to being misrepresented and insulted of remaining calm and asking for examples isn't boring Doodledog. It's very frustrating though isn't it when specific examples are asked for but never received.

As for the stopping off, flouncing and refusing to engage, I do tend to find those tactics amusing especially when the one who strops off or flounces comes back .

Doesn’t ’toys out of cot’ refer to stropping off/flouncing/refusing to engage? That doesn’t happen on the ‘GC’ side of the argument.

I know it’s boring, but my approach to being misrepresented and insulted tends to be to calmly call the offender(s) to account with specific reference to what they have said, rather than vague ‘some people’ passive aggression. I don’t strop, and can’t remember anyone else who believes that TWA(not)Women doing so either.

Mollygo

^Feminist- an advocate of women’s (AHF) rights on the basis of equality of the sexes.^

There are many who consider themselves feminists but feel they need a qualifying adjective such as intersectional or even intersexual before the word feminist.

This usually means they don’t advocate women’s rights on the basis of equality of the sexes, but often advocate anything which goes against female rights if it benefits males.

These are better known as misogynistic feminists.

This is the main reason I'm leaving. I'm quite prepared to debate anything.
But when this sort of post is ignored by others.and not called out for what it is I despair
For the record, no intersectional feminist is misogynistic
No feminist is misogynistic
And to all those claiming I haven't been called a misogynistic bitch I may have added the bitch.
Goodnight and may your god go with you.

I thought the pile on was by G et al.
The endless labelling posters as GC (her version), the endless accusations of you hate trans together with the inability to find evidence of that, the endless virtue signalling of I’m . . .
This thread is about free speech. Do you only want free speech Glorianny, when it fits in with your ideas? You notice other posters are not flouncing off, but allowing you to have your say.
I find it strange that Glorianny would label herself a misogynistic, uncaring bitch. when no one else has called her by any of those terms, but if that’s how she see herself she has the right (free speech) to say it.

That's seems to be the problem for some NanaDana they can dish it out, and do so in spades but don't like it being dished out back.

Our quiet existence is what those who think they have the right to avail themselves of what women have fought so hard for want, and I'm glad to see that that isn't happening.

No of course a trans woman's experience of life isn't the same as a natal woman's Dicken's, how can it possibly be? VS didn't specify what other kinds of feminism refuse to accept trans women's identity which came as no surprise. I've never come across any and was genuinely interested in seeing specific examples.

I often wonder why those who don't seem to be concerned about how their posts may affect others, are so sensitive. If this is not a safe space for women, then why take part in this discussion at all?

My cousin and I don't agree on this subject at all but that doesn't prevent us from having a robust exchange of views, because personal insults are never used and we are able to respectfully agree to disagree.

You may be right Doodledog about there not being much to debate on this issue, but it's important to have these conversations. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind and I don't think anyone here is TBH.

Like you I don't know any Creationists, but respect their right to think as they do, I would object if they infiltrated schools, changed the language, dressed in masks and screamed in people's faces or succeeded in banning meetings of more liberal religions though.

Regarding the disagreement of your views as disrespectful makes engagement extremely difficult, especially when that is expressed in a disrespectful and passive aggressive manner, as evidenced in these threads.

Have to agree with Doodledog that there's not much room for "debate" on issues such as this, rather like with religion and with politics. People's views seem to be pretty well entrenched, and trotting out the same old arguments on either side is unlikely to change anything much, if at all. What seems to happen most often is that the rising frustration at the impasse on each side of the barricade can encourage a descent into name-calling/personal abuse/general denigration etc., at which point, perhaps we should all just quietly exit. However, I admit that it's sometimes tempting (a guilty pleasure?) to continue to respond to such negativity, whilst trying to avoid descending to the same or to a similar level. Oh that we could all take Desmond Tutu's advice " not to raise your voice, but to improve your argument". Wise man.

NanaDana

Smileless2012

No one's said you're a "misogynistic, uncaring bitch" Glorianny and all you've achieved by saying so is giving an example of victim hood.

Sadly predictable again, Smileless... and perhaps just a wee bit "toys out of cot" because of being called out? If you dish it out, be prepared for someone to dish it back, eh? In the nicest possible way, of course..

I think my record on dishing it back stands for itself NanaDana
The crowing and the "toys out of cot" also stands for itself. Such is the standard of debate on GN

Oops - forgot the formatting, but obviously the first bit of that post is quoting Glorianny.

So I'm leaving all of you to congratulate each other on how caring and considerate you are and what a misogynistic, uncaring bitch I am.
Just as well I'm a strong woman well able to stand my corner.
Because the pile ons on these threads are disgusting.

Now there's an example of things being twisted if ever I saw one 😂. I found fifteen examples of insults and digs on the first eight pages of this thread, and none of them was successfully refuted, yet still there are moans about how the 'GC' posters 'pile on' their poor victims.

As for the soundbite 'don't engage, GC never change' (do you ever use your own words?) it says it all, really. Most people will change their views if they are persuaded that there are good points to be made that conflict with them. I moderate my views or change my mind all the time. But if they are harangued, spoken down to, told that they are prejudiced and discriminatory, etc etc, people are much less likely to listen. And 'because I say so' is never effective. Small children can be bullied with those words, but not grown women.