Cancel Culture or Free Speech

Smileless2012

No one's said you're a "misogynistic, uncaring bitch" Glorianny and all you've achieved by saying so is giving an example of victim hood.

Sadly predictable again, Smileless... and perhaps just a wee bit "toys out of cot" because of being called out? If you dish it out, be prepared for someone to dish it back, eh? In the nicest possible way, of course..

I'm not sure that there is a lot of debate to be had really. It seems impossible to get beyond the 'I believe that TWAW so it must be true' argument, regardless of how much it can be shown that biologically that is not possible.

Questions about how a feeling can trump biology, what 'feeling like a woman' or 'living as a woman' actually means, how a man can become a woman (or vice versa) particularly with their genitals intact, why so many children are now 'identifying' out of their sex, and so many more are seen as 'trick questions' (or 'manufactured questions' in the case of this thread) or ignored altogether.

It's like a religion. There is no point in arguing about that either, or using science to show that some beliefs cannot be based in reality, as people believe what they believe, and they have a right to do so. The problems arise when they force their beliefs on others, or are offensive to those who don't share them. Many people accept that man evolved from fish or whatever it was, but reconcile that with their belief system. I don't know any Creationists, but respect their right to think as they do. I would object if they infiltrated schools, changed the language, dressed in masks and screamed in people's faces or succeeded in banning meetings of more liberal religions though.

VioletSky

Intersectional feminism exists primarily for the inclusion of women of colour, different sexualities, different religions and different disabilities because intersectional feminism recognizes that their experience of womanhood is not the same as straight, white, able women assigned female at birth

Intersectional feminism seeks to challenge racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti religious views and disability discrimination against all it's members

Yes we include trans women in our numbers because other kinds of feminism, refuse to accept trans women's identity, primarily because they believe a trans woman's experience is not the same as their own.

Intersectional feminism recognizes the real differences between the experiences of all women and the ways that often straight white males have been oppressing women for hundreds of years sometimes with the help of racist, religionist, homophobic, transphobic, entitled able women

Calling intersectional feminism mysoginist is like stating that the sun is the moon.

It's also quite a bad thing to call anyone and in many ways worse than calling someone racist or homophobic etc and I think you all know that

But as much as all respect has now been lost for many of you, I can gladly say that I don't have to live with your views or behaviour... Ultimately you have to live with that... I will take safe refuge in the fact that I don't know a single woman who would disagree with me outside of this space that is not a safe space for women at all.

Yes we include trans women in our numbers because other kinds of feminism, refuse to accept trans women's identity, primarily because they believe a trans woman's experience is not the same as their own.

But VS Is a trans woman's life experience the same as a biological woman's experience? Apart from the - obvious - similarities that we all share as human beings who need to eat, sleep and possibly earn a living?

Is a man who questions his identity as a teen going to go down the same pathway as a biological woman who doesn't?

But as much as all respect has now been lost for many of you, I can gladly say that I don't have to live with your views or behaviour... Ultimately you have to live with that... I will take safe refuge in the fact that I don't know a single woman who would disagree with me outside of this space that is not a safe space for women at all.

What, exactly is a "safe place" to you? Natal women have told you what they consider to be safe places / spaces in which they don't want a male-body, whether it's a straight, white, male body, or a trans woman's male body.

This is a social media site, and as such, along with other SM sites, it is not a particularly safe space... none of them are - for anyone. If you make a comment, declaring a POV, you are, in common with the rest of us, opening yourself up to criticism and argument.

If you want safe spaces on the 'net - and sometimes we might need them for particular problems or issues where we don't want just any random individual jumping in with his / her two penn'orth of opinion - join a private group where posts are moderated. On a public forum, open to all, you are going to get comments and opinions that will distinctly not chime with yours.

And posters will not always couch their words in ways that make you feel comfortable. I never feel comfortable with Glorianny's comments, but she's exercising her right to put her point(s) across in her way - and she's not forcing me to respond, she might challenge me to do so, but the choice to engage or not, is mine.

You clearly get upset with those of us who disagree with you, not only because of the fact we disagree, but in the way we do it. We're all individual and some are more reticent than others in expressing themselves. That's how most if not all SM sites work.

No-one on GN should be bullied or harassed or threatened - and the guidelines make that clear. But if you expect not to be challenged over your comments and further, expect that challenge to be couched in terminology that meets your own specific requirements, you will be continually upset on these threads.

No one's said you're a "misogynistic, uncaring bitch" Glorianny and all you've achieved by saying so is giving an example of victim hood.

Smileless2012

It is a shame that people are deterred from taking part in discussions about trans issues but that does seem to be the objective doesn't it, here on GN and out there in the 'real world'.

The insults, generalisations, accusations, victim hood and passive aggressive behaviour demonstrate to me, the weakness of the argument from those who use those tactics.

I like a good debate, with robust arguments from all perspectives and despite the unsavoury tactics that have been used by some, this thread like all the others we've had on this subject has been both informative and thought provoking, and there's still another 5 pages to go.

Yeh well I can see what you mean. I've been told before "Don't engage. GCs never change, or consider any view but their own" I've tried to listen but you do post the biggest lots of rubbish.
So I'm leaving all of you to congratulate each other on how caring and considerate you are and what a misogynistic, uncaring bitch I am.
Just as well I'm a strong woman well able to stand my corner.
Because the pile ons on these threads are disgusting.

Thanks GG. I post quite a lot but steer clear of the trans threads as they always descend into nastiness. I read them and it’s the same stuff, the same personal attacks by the same people, every time. My stance is, always has been and will continue to be, that TW are not W. And I have no desire to join in debates about different varieties of feminism.

As you say NanaDana a predictable reply to an upbeat post. I can understand why though, when so much time is spent saying that anyone whose not an IF is transphobic, denies trans their identity and even their existence, Iam's post does rather blow that line of argument out of the water doesn't it.

It is a shame that people are deterred from taking part in discussions about trans issues but that does seem to be the objective doesn't it, here on GN and out there in the 'real world'.

The insults, generalisations, accusations, victim hood and passive aggressive behaviour demonstrate to me, the weakness of the argument from those who use those tactics.

I like a good debate, with robust arguments from all perspectives and despite the unsavoury tactics that have been used by some, this thread like all the others we've had on this subject has been both informative and thought provoking, and there's still another 5 pages to go.

Iam64

I expected the question about how I knew and how I’d feel about the toilet question from you glory. Height is easy, I’m 5’8”, mr I was 6’ 6”. I’ve a 6 ft sister and daughter, my bil is 6’6”. I’m used to height and fairly good at guesstimating.
As for recognising her trans status, give us a break, her voice, physical presentation, hair, makeup and more made it clear. What mattered was the ease with which she engaged me in discussion about the price/quality differences between the chain garden centre we were in and the small local one .
Very pleasant and to me fairly classic chat between two friendly customers happily selecting plants for our pots

I had another chance encounter during the same visit. I’m having a second outside tap fitted as I’m finding hauling the hose pipe too much. Lovely man looking at the curly hose pipes helped me work out the size and which things I’d need to fix it to the tap. Yes gloryannie, I could easily tell he was a chap of a similar age to me. He was so helpful and friendly. Mind - it’s the north west 🌞

Interesting to hear that, Iam64, and sadly predictable that such an upbeat post should attract a patronising, condescending, negative response from certain areas. Some people could start an argument in an empty room. Why do they feel the need? I'm not sure that even they know the answer to that.. Anyway, life goes on regardless, eh?

Well, I suppose you have to be pretty thick skinned to go on forums. The insults don't bother me, they just make me laugh - I know who and what I am, and they don't.

But, yes, it might put some off of posting what they think. Which is shame. 😗

Germanshepherdsmum

The trans threads are renowned for it and that’s why my contributions are minimal. I won’t forget being called a bigot and probably racist, nor do I forget who said that. They have since changed their username but remain very recognisable.

Please do not be put off posting Germanshepherdsmum

I enjoy reading your posts on a variety of subjects 👍

Yes, it's the worst disguise since Charley's Aunt.

Apart from the irritation of being wrongly accused and patronised, I am sad that other people (from both 'sides' of the discussion) are put off joining in these threads - it really is a classic example of shutting down contrary opinion, and unfortunately it has worked.

The trans threads are renowned for it and that’s why my contributions are minimal. I won’t forget being called a bigot and probably racist, nor do I forget who said that. They have since changed their username but remain very recognisable.

Yes, I've been on and off forums for a very long time, and if there's a good and reasonable argument to be had, a debate can be interesting.

Once the insults, generalisations , accusations, victimhood, and passive aggressive behaviour starts, then the original debate gets lost.🙄
Me too, and I couldn't agree more.

Smileless2012

^all it proves is that their argument is lost^ and it happens again and again DL.

Yes, I've been on and off forums for a very long time, and if there's a good and reasonable argument to be had, a debate can be interesting.

Once the insults, generalisations , accusations, victimhood, and passive aggressive behaviour starts, then the original debate gets lost.🙄

all it proves is that their argument is lost and it happens again and again DL.

Iam64

Am I alone in losing the will to live, or at least carry on with this tortuous polarised ‘debate’. No surprises here, I’m in support of comments from diamond, doodle, smiles, molly and others and totally fed up with sanctimonious, superior, sneery comments from glory - supported by Violet.

I’m going slightly off piste as ever but - what’s wrong with so called white middle class wimin? Most of us in my Wimin’s groups here in the north west would have grandparents working in mills from age 8-10, leaving part time school around 11. They did 12 hour shifts, went hungry when the mills were closed or on half time. Their children dragged themselves into work ‘that meant your hands were clean’. The next generation, my lot, stayed at school ‘becsuse that way you get better jobs’. Some of us even went to university or the poly. How proud our grandparents were.
We weren’t homophobic or racist or smug. We were keen for knowledge and liberal.
Sorry I’m ranting but I’m so fed up with generations of strong women, like my grannie, my mum and dare I say me and my daughters being dismissed as smug racists who don’t care about trans people. It’s no sense and offensive no sense to boot

Yes, I'm still trying to work out how I've morphed into "middle class" and "privileged".🙄

My maternal Nan, born at the turn of the last century, spent 3 years in a workhouse orphsnage when her mother died, when she was 3. She never really got over that.

Shen then got bombed out 3 times in the blitz and lost her husband at the age of 42, and worked in a factory until she retired, to keep food on the table....not very privileged.

She would have laughed out loud at that thought.

She also knew the difference between a man and a woman...🙄

By this theory, the vast majority of posters on Mumsnet must be privileged as well.

The threads on there are hilarious at times....and not many support biological men invading their spaces either.

Trying to link all this to racism is beyond silly.

But, forums are what they are - and as soon as people start with insults, casting aspersions, trying to make out they are the font of all knowledge etc. all it proves is that their argument is lost.

I expected the question about how I knew and how I’d feel about the toilet question from you glory. Height is easy, I’m 5’8”, mr I was 6’ 6”. I’ve a 6 ft sister and daughter, my bil is 6’6”. I’m used to height and fairly good at guesstimating.
As for recognising her trans status, give us a break, her voice, physical presentation, hair, makeup and more made it clear. What mattered was the ease with which she engaged me in discussion about the price/quality differences between the chain garden centre we were in and the small local one .
Very pleasant and to me fairly classic chat between two friendly customers happily selecting plants for our pots

I had another chance encounter during the same visit. I’m having a second outside tap fitted as I’m finding hauling the hose pipe too much. Lovely man looking at the curly hose pipes helped me work out the size and which things I’d need to fix it to the tap. Yes gloryannie, I could easily tell he was a chap of a similar age to me. He was so helpful and friendly. Mind - it’s the north west 🌞

Or maybe she announced it like G’s acquaintances evidently do.
Who knows.
It sounds like a lovely afternoon Iam64

There aren't many who go to a garden centre in 6" heels Glorianny.

That's lovely Iam64 , but I wonder how you knew she was a transwoman or her height? Was she wearing high heels? She might have only been 5ft 10in?
Just as well she didn't need the loo eh.

Well who'd have thought it.

Exactly so smiles, as did the two jolly women on the tills.

You mean you actually managed to have a pleasant, non judgemental interaction with a trans woman even though you're not an intersectional feminist Iam .

I met a 6’4”trans woman at the garden centre this afternoon, gorgeous short hair cut, lots of foundation, pink nails and lipstick. She was good fun, we compared notes on which bedding plants were worth the money and how far we were on with potting pots.
We enjoyed a laugh with the checkout assistants and waved happily as we drove off.
That’s normal life. Live and celebrate friendly, easy communication