Criminal or a Health Matter?

Germanshepherdsmum

Thanks for linking to the judgement GSM.

It's such an emotive issue, that it does well to understand all the circumstances surrounding the case - and to read about them in unemotional and rational legal terminology.

I think what needs to be avoided is extreme reactions to the sentencing from either the pro or anti abortion camps. It doesn't help anyone.

Sometimes - if you read comments in the tabloid media - it appears people don't understand that judges don't make the Law, they interpret it and work within its framework. When sentences appear unduly lenient or unduly harsh you read and hear comments such as "these judges are out of touch" or "they haven't got a clue"... well actually, they're not out of touch at all and have more of a "clue" than the average layman will ever have.

I do question the 'usefulness' of this woman's sentence and I think her punishment and rehabilitation might have been better achieved in other ways - but this is a matter for the law-makers, not the judge.

GSM Just want to thank you so much for your patience and for taking the time and trouble to explain things to us non-legal folks - I too “speed read and speed type” that doesn’t given me some hidden talent to untangle and comprehend legal documents ! I think some people are being a little foolish in their assertions 😊

He does not say that she is emotionally unstable as a result of the abortion. His only reference to the Catt case is in terms of sentence. Catt received five years due to aggravating factors not present in the Foster case. Read the judgement again as it is, not how you want it to be.

I've read the judgement. I notice he seems to say she is emotionally unstable and depressed as a result of the abortion. As there was no medical assessment before the abortion I don't see how he can decide when or how her depression began. One thing is certain she is now in a pitiful state emotionally and mentally.
He also seems to blame her for her not guilty plea although there is a statement that her counsel wanted the charge changed.
There are few parallels between the case he used to reach judgement apart from the fact that both involved late abortions. One would seem to be a woman who used abortion and adoption to limit the children she cared for. who refused to cooperate and reveal the body, and the other a woman so devastated by what she has done that she has even named the baby.
It's a bit like sentencing a first time offender to prison because a dedicated burglar has been.

pascal30

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

That isn't true that was the case which the judge used to reach his sentencing decision

Even in the Pandemic, it was possible to get things from the Pharmacy including the morning after pill. Of course it is impossible to know what the circumstances of conception were. It could have been an accident where the father was happy for them to proceed but when they broke up, was less supportive.
However, on balance, I think the mother deserved a prison sentence but I do feel so badly for her children. It always seems that it is the children who come off worse and in this case none more so than the unborn child.
If drugs are going to be prescribed by telephone, I think it is really important that those needing the medication realise there are consequences to their dishonesty because it won't be long before anti-abortionists are seeking to have the service closed down.
Within all this, there is the terrible effect that all of this has had on this mother. Maybe prison isn't the best place for her (presuming that she isn't just being devious to get a lesser sentence) but somewhere she could get therapy along with a sound education on how to make sensible decisions so she doesn't get herself into this sort of mess. There was mention of "emotionally unstable personality traits" and although this would be quite difficult to change, it can be worked with CBT upon to help a person become more stable. I think this would be much preferable to prison and could even help her living children.

ronib

GSM I think you are showing extreme patience.

Thanks ronib. It’s not easy!

welbeck

pascal30

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

i think you are confusing this defendant, ms foster, with another case that the judge refers to, that of ms catt.
the facts you refer to relate to ms catt, not the defendant in this case.

Oh yes you are correct .. apologies

JenniferEccles

She killed her baby. I’m wholly in favour of her being severely punished.

I agree

GSM I think you are showing extreme patience.

Do you not understand that the judge had no alternative Shazmo? If you read the judgment you will I hope understand.

I can't help but think that there must have been desperate circunstances in her life to lie about getting mefication.
Sending her to jail isn't going to make the problem go away....she needed help & compassion

Germanshepherdsmum

Sorry, you don’t speed read legal judgments and comprehend the nuances of the judgment. I can speed read too, but there are times when it’s not appropriate. Your comment after reading the judgment showed that. Oh, and before you say it in your defence, I can type quickly too.

i agree GSM.

pascal30

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

i think you are confusing this defendant, ms foster, with another case that the judge refers to, that of ms catt.
the facts you refer to relate to ms catt, not the defendant in this case.

44 years ago I lost a much wanted and already loved baby at 28 weeks, I had to go through 25 hours of induced Labour and when he was delivered, he was perfectly formed, a perfect little person.

To abort a baby at such a late stage is tantamount to murder, and the punishment should fit the crime.

Sorry, you don’t speed read legal judgments and comprehend the nuances of the judgment. I can speed read too, but there are times when it’s not appropriate. Your comment after reading the judgment showed that. Oh, and before you say it in your defence, I can type quickly too.

Germanshepherdsmum

And if I may say so, Saetana, posting at 14.48 that you were just about to read the judgment and then posting your typed-up thoughts on it at 15.00 is not indicative of reading it carefully and considering its contents. I’m a retired solicitor used to reading judgments and it certainly took me considerably longer than you to read and digest it.

I am a fast reader, I read a lot and frequently, I read the report and managed to digest it in a very short time - lets call it a talent of mine

Germanshepherdsmum

I have downloaded the full judgment. Here it is:
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/R-v.-Foster-sentencing-remarks-12.6.23.pdf

Thank you for posting this link

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

I understand that, GSM - but my point is that, while those factors would certainly be taken into consideration, the unborn child would not be treated as a separate person in the eyes of the law.

In some countries it would be treated as a double murder. In the UK murder is subject to a mandatory life sentence. Aggravating factors such as the woman having been pregnant will be considered when deciding on the minimum sentence the murderer must serve. The fact that the child’s life has also been ended will not be ignored. The death of the unborn child will not be disregarded, nor should it be whatever the stage of pregnancy. The law values life.

How about this then? If the woman in question had herself been murdered, the perpetrator would not be charged with two counts of murder, as her unborn child would not be regarded as a person in the eyes of the law.

Jess20

So sad, not appropriate to imprison the poor woman, her children that will suffer and it's hardly a deterrent. She must have been desperate, needs support not punishment.

Yes, and yes, Blondiescot.

I think it's perfectly possible to have read the judgement and understand the reasoning behind the sentence - and at the same time, to disagree with that sentence on a personal level.

That’s right Smileless. And they can’t just hand down whatever sentence they feel like on the day. If there is an appeal against sentence it’s possible it may be cut or even suspended and that would be a reference point for a judge dealing with a similar case in future. The appeal judgement would also provide reasons for upholding or changing the sentence which would provide further clarity for some posters unhappy with the outcome. On a personal level I find the crime abhorrent and nothing I have read has changed my mind or lead me to have any sympathy for the perpetrator.