Into the abyss - NHS Consultants have voted for strike action

Shelflife

My sympathy has long gone , they should be ashamed of themselves.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

GSM not only does the Uk funding model need to be reassessed but my friend in Germany was surprised by the difference in quality of care. No waiting times of any note plus an interested gp who spent time getting to know a new patient. My friend was astonished.
Given that the Uk is fast sliding down the medical outcomes list with ever increasing waiting times, I fail to understand how paying consultants a penny more will result in treatment anywhere near the German model.

Indeed. Whereas we cease to pay NI when the state pension arrives. I don’t see how we can compare funding of the NHS with funding of healthcare in other countries when the contributions of the end users differ so much.

No one has answered my question. My friend is required to pay 250 euros per month as a pensioner living in Germany for health care and her partner has an enhanced payment of 420 euros a month.
I was asking about the funding model that is how much the end user has to pay for a good/adequate health care system as opposed to the failing model we have here.

My sympathy has long gone , they should be ashamed of themselves.

Sorry to pre-empt you Grantanow. It's something I know quite a bit about for a number of reasons.

ronib

Grantanow do you know how much Germans pay out monthly for healthcare? It would be useful to compare. It’s a more complicated system than here.

I think Growstuff has answered your question.

I have a much better idea - we could outsource all our medical training to Cuba. I understand Cuba is able to provide doctors to other countries and medics are paid meagre salaries.
Alternatively courses in financial budgeting might need to be part of medical training too.
Let’s go fully socialist and not hang around.

That's my understanding too Margiknot. They are asking for an increase equivalent to current inflation plus an agreement on a system which will ensure that future pay rises are inline with inflation.

I'm not sure what the consultants are requesting for themselves, but they are not demanding a 35% pay rise. My understanding is that they are pointing out that their salaries have effectively fallen compared with inflation/ cost of living by 35% and as a result they are loosing doctors at all levels to other countries.

Casdon

ronib

Casdon lots of people are paid peanuts in this country not just doctors in training. If a student wants a highly paid profession maybe the time to work it out is before the start of university and not at the end. No one is forcing people to choose medicine.

As I said ronib, it will be like Logan’s Run. Why not close the medical schools altogether, let all the highly intelligent previously would be doctors take the jobs from the financial and legal professionals, and send everybody off to oblivion at the age of 30. Who needs healthcare after all.

Precisely, Casdon

Who needs highly trained medical professionals to take care of their health needs...

Aveline

I know the NHS is sacred and I feel sorry for the junior doctors but I'm less sympathetic to consultants. If they would agree to increase the training places and thus the stranglehold on expansion there could be many more doctors.

It was the govt that refused to fund extra training places not the consultants.
www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/14/ministers-refuse-fund-medical-school-uk-doctor-shortage

Casdon I wouldn't have made it beyond five years of age.

And I doubt if there would be enough people for GN.

Germanshepherdsmum

Their salaries may pale into insignificance when compared with other professions foxie, but it was ever thus and they would have known that when choosing medicine as a career rather than, say, law or banking.

Indeed they do but all the doctors are asking is to be put back on a level that they expected to be on when they started training, they are not asking for an increase per se just parity.

ronib

Casdon lots of people are paid peanuts in this country not just doctors in training. If a student wants a highly paid profession maybe the time to work it out is before the start of university and not at the end. No one is forcing people to choose medicine.

As I said ronib, it will be like Logan’s Run. Why not close the medical schools altogether, let all the highly intelligent previously would be doctors take the jobs from the financial and legal professionals, and send everybody off to oblivion at the age of 30. Who needs healthcare after all.

The cost of public health insurance in Germany is typically based on a percentage of an individual’s income and, as of 2023, is set at a rate between 14.6% to 15.6%— depending on your salary. This percentage is shared between you and your employer, but if you are self-employed, you cover the entire cost alone.

As a pensioner, you pay the same health insurance contribution rate of 16.1%, just like other insured parties. This contribution rate is a combination of the general contribution rate of 14.6% and the additional contribution of 1.5%. For nursing care insurance, as well, you pay the same contribution as any other insured party. In 2023, the contribution rate for nursing care is 3.4%.
The contributions for health and nursing care insurance are calculated on the basis of your individual income. The following sources of income are taken into account in this case:

Statutory pensions under the German pension insurance scheme and agricultural pensions
Foreign pensions
Benefit payments from your former employer
Earnings from lump-sum benefits and lump-sum settlements
Income from self-employed work (earned income)

Grantanow do you know how much Germans pay out monthly for healthcare? It would be useful to compare. It’s a more complicated system than here.

The Tories spend some 39% less on the NHS than the Germans spend on their health service and we are consequentially short of doctors who are leaving for Australia and elsewhere for a less-stressful and better paid life.. Bear in mind that government Ministers can earn £84,000 as MPs plus up to about £101,000 (depending on the post) as well as being eligible for significant expenses and allowances. Few of them have worked and studied as hard as hospital consultants for whom it takes about 15 years to achieve the grade and they incur considerable education and training costs and student debt.

Agreed Opal and ronib.

Casdon lots of people are paid peanuts in this country not just doctors in training. If a student wants a highly paid profession maybe the time to work it out is before the start of university and not at the end. No one is forcing people to choose medicine.

Consideration needs to be given to the entire employment contract, not just the salary. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but the NHS employer's pension contribution used to be 14%, and doctors' holiday entitlement was around 7 weeks' per annum, both of which are significantly more than the norm. Maternity pay was also very generous, as I recall. I'm happy to pay doctors a fair and reasonable rate of pay, providing they are happy to accept that their other terms of employment also need to be in line with what is fair and reasonable - they are well above the "norm" at present.

ronib

Casdon Since a lot of newly qualified medics are migrating to Australia and NZ, and we’re stealing medics from third world countries, the notion of skewed priorities is ironic.

I don’t follow your logic ronib. I know, let’s pay all doctors peanuts, encourage them to emigrate, and follow the Logan’s Run model shall we?

Casdon Since a lot of newly qualified medics are migrating to Australia and NZ, and we’re stealing medics from third world countries, the notion of skewed priorities is ironic.

I know the NHS is sacred and I feel sorry for the junior doctors but I'm less sympathetic to consultants. If they would agree to increase the training places and thus the stranglehold on expansion there could be many more doctors.

Germanshepherdsmum

Their salaries may pale into insignificance when compared with other professions foxie, but it was ever thus and they would have known that when choosing medicine as a career rather than, say, law or banking.

I can hazard a very good guess as to what the majority of the population would say is the most valuable of those roles to society. Skewed priorities.