Gransnet forums

News & politics

Ofwat allowed the water companies to take on massive debts, the big question is WHY?

(68 Posts)
MaizieD Wed 05-Jul-23 18:04:02

I have seen others argue, like Katie59, that OFWAT has controlled water company investment, but when they have to borrow to invest (by way of expensive index linked bonds) and intend to pass the costs onto the consumer because their operating profit is going on tax, interest charges and dividends (read Murphy's analysis) then a not for profit nationalised model looks far more rational.

I don't think anyone objects to paying for clean drinking water and unpolluted waterways, but the current use of profits is ridiculous.

There is also the question of efficient use of water and cutting wastage via leaks.

The UK is on its way to being seriously short of water according to this article:

www.theguardian.com/news/2023/jun/15/drought-is-on-the-verge-of-becoming-the-next-pandemic

Whitewavemark2 Wed 05-Jul-23 17:30:47

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that OFWAT is a regulatory body. It doesn't actually control water companies or how much they invest.

I think you are correct growstuff

Yes but the government does have the power, but never as far as I am aware uses it. (Small state)

GrannyGravy13 Wed 05-Jul-23 17:26:50

growstuff

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that OFWAT is a regulatory body. It doesn't actually control water companies or how much they invest.

I think you are correct growstuff

growstuff Wed 05-Jul-23 17:24:47

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that OFWAT is a regulatory body. It doesn't actually control water companies or how much they invest.

Katie59 Wed 05-Jul-23 17:02:25

OFWAT and therefore the government wanted improvements done on the cheap, don’t blame the water companies they are controlled by OFWAT.

The investors that finance the water companies expect to profit from their investment and be repaid their capital, they replace the £ billions that the government would have to find if it was nationalized.
Years of underinvestment by OFWAT to keep water bills down blame the Tories for that.

MaizieD Wed 05-Jul-23 14:15:35

Gillycats

I think it was a case of lunatics running the asylum. Clueless and given free rein to squander money. Surely there should be more accountability? I’m a TW customer and furious with them. They’re almost as shameless as Woking Council, who should also be investigated!

I should have pointed out earlier that if a private business performs badly, and goodness knows, the water companies have performed appallingly, their customers are free to take their custom elsewhere and the business folds.

Of course, water customers can't do that. There is no alternative supplier they can turn to.

Germanshepherdsmum Wed 05-Jul-23 12:03:50

Informed opinions are useful, speculation is not.

Gillycats Wed 05-Jul-23 12:03:26

I think it was a case of lunatics running the asylum. Clueless and given free rein to squander money. Surely there should be more accountability? I’m a TW customer and furious with them. They’re almost as shameless as Woking Council, who should also be investigated!

foxie48 Wed 05-Jul-23 12:01:51

Germanshepherdsmum

What’s the point of uninformed speculation?

It encourages me to find out more and also people are starting to post information that I've not seen. I think "speculation" and opinions are quite important, I prefer them to shutting down discussion about things that affect us all.

Kim19 Wed 05-Jul-23 12:01:44

I'm ignorant of the compilation of the Ofwat team. Are they government selected individuals, please?

MaizieD Wed 05-Jul-23 10:20:54

Richard Murphy did a long thread on this yesterday. His conclusion is that nationalisation would seem inevitable in view of the WC's current financial situation. It is worth reading if one seriously wants to find out what is happening .

It is not 'speculation' it is based on the facts of the water companies' financial arrangements.

Why should we take notice of him?

From his introduction:

First, I should lay out my credentials for saying what follows. I am a professor of accounting practice at Sheffield University Management School. More importantly, I have been a chartered accountant for forty years and I have bought and sold a lot of companies.

This matters because a lot of what of what is being said right now about the affordability of various options when it comes to our water companies and other utilities is based on political rhetoric and not very much at all on how nationalisation works and how it can be paid for.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2023/07/04/its-time-we-took-water-nationalisation-seriously-it-is-the-only-viable-option-for-the-industry/

A follow up post this morning adds more

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2023/07/05/the-case-for-water-nationalisation-is-growing/

If I understand this correctly he is saying that water companies which have 'borrowed' via index linked bonds are being hit by the interest rate rises which have greatly increased their interest payments to bond holders.

He is saying that water company operating profits are being used to pay tax, bond interest and shareholder dividends

20p in every pound paid to them by us, the water consumer, has gone on interest charges, and another 15p has gone on dividends. The remaining 3p has gone on tax. There has never been profit left over to invest in the new equipment the industry needs.

The scale of the new investment that is required is massive. The government says it's £56 billion. The House of Lords says it is £260bn. Either way, the water companies can only raise this by charging more, borrowing more or getting the shareholders to finally cough up more.

He is saying that Thames water, at least, is struggling to raise capital for investment in the infrastructure work need to deal with the sewage discharge problems.

^ ..... Thames Water was in more trouble than it claimed because although we knew it had sought £1.5 billion in new funding, it had only actually raised £0.5 billion. At the time, I was unaware of the matters referred to in an FT report on yesterday's hearing at parliament on its finances.^

They report:
Thames Water needs billions of pounds more in cash at a time when investors lack the “appetite” to put more money in the industry, the water regulator said on Tuesday.

David Black, chief executive of Ofwat, told a House of Lords committee hearing that Britain's largest privatised water utility was struggling to secure £1bn in the short term, after a year of trying to do so.

As to WHY this has happened, I suppose one can only point to poor regulation and, perhaps, the incompatibility of running a company mainly to produce profit for shareholder dividends with the need to provide a basic, efficient, and trustworthy, public service.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 05-Jul-23 10:14:25

To pay the sort of directors remuneration and shareholders, they had no other choice but to obtain massive loans. They certainly were not ploughing it back into investing into the infrastructure to improve the service and environment.

Ilovecheese Wed 05-Jul-23 09:47:27

I speculate that it was greed and incompetence.

foxie48 Wed 05-Jul-23 09:40:23

FWIW I am a customer of Severn Trent, this what they pay the chief executive office and chief finance officer before any bonus.
Olivia GarfieldCEO & Executive DirectorUK£3.21m
James BowlingCFO & Executive DirectorUK£1.66m
What Is Severn Trent's Debt? The image below, which you can click on for greater detail, shows that at March 2023 Severn Trent had debt of UK£7.20b, up from UK£6.65b in one year. Net debt is about the same, since then it doesn't have much cash. 15 Jun 2023

Germanshepherdsmum Wed 05-Jul-23 09:38:55

What’s the point of uninformed speculation?

foxie48 Wed 05-Jul-23 09:34:54

Well let's speculate, it's often what these threads are used for. so that people can air their opinions, vent a bit of anger if they wish. There's going to be lots in the media or should be as IMO it's a rather big scandal!

Germanshepherdsmum Wed 05-Jul-23 09:26:15

The answer is that none of us know the full facts and can only speculate.

foxie48 Wed 05-Jul-23 09:05:56

Thames Water has debts of 14.3 bn, dividend levels and executive pay packages have been excessive and it seems that Thames customers will be asked to pay more for their water and the tax payer may have to stump up too. Surely it would be obvious that interest rates would go up and it wasn't as if they were borrowing to improve the services to Thames water customers, (too much went into the pockets of executives and shareholders). So why did they over extend their borrowing, why were the banks willing to let them and why didn't Ofwat look after the interests of customers better? I suspect the answer is just plain greed and incompetence but others may have other views.