Malnutrition in England

Doodledog My children's primary sent out menus a week in advance, and you chose which days you wanted them to stay for lunch based on that. If all schools did the same, parents could choose to send in packed lunches if their child couldn't eat anything, but IMO it would be a huge step forward if every child were offered a free hot meal every day.

Indeed. Children are the future and should be well nourished.

Dietitians could easily work out menus suitable to most all children, including avoidance of major allergens, religious needs etc.

IMO it would be a huge step forward if every child were offered a free hot meal every day.
Hear hear.

No prawns, no celery, celeriac, no kiwi.
To accommodate randoms like me 😁

Good grief! Obviously if a child were unable to eat anything on a menu there would have to be an alternative. My children's primary sent out menus a week in advance, and you chose which days you wanted them to stay for lunch based on that. If all schools did the same, parents could choose to send in packed lunches if their child couldn't eat anything, but IMO it would be a huge step forward if every child were offered a free hot meal every day.

As for the content of the meals, dieticians would work out menus that would suit the greatest number with the best nutritional value, not randoms on Gransnet like me .

Are you addressing me, Freya?

Try reading the posts 🙂

Callistemon21

^No gluten, nuts, eggs, milk, cheese, meat - would I believe cover the vast majority of allergens and religious plus personal preferences, leaving so many easy, reasonable and healthy alternatives.^

That last suggestion reminded me of a quote:

Marjorie Dawes:
^Dust. Anybody? No? High in fat, low in fat? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. It's actually very low in fat. You can have as much dust as you like.^

So in your school no dairy,products such as milk, yoghurt, eggs, cheese, for calcium, and are the best absorbed sources, required for bones, teeth, it's also important for healthy cell function, muscle and nerve function, cell communication and a few other important functions. Also children need vit D supplement which helps calcium be absorbed, as so many aren't allowed outdoors, or are covered head to foot. This is especially important in children with darker skins, who don't absorb vit D very well in this Northern climate. So not as simple as cutting out milk cheese etc .

As my mother used to say -"You eat a peck of dirt before you die".

One peck = 12-14 lbs!

I'm sure dust is scrummy and ever so nutritious!

No gluten, nuts, eggs, milk, cheese, meat - would I believe cover the vast majority of allergens and religious plus personal preferences, leaving so many easy, reasonable and healthy alternatives.

That last suggestion reminded me of a quote:

Marjorie Dawes:
Dust. Anybody? No? High in fat, low in fat? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. Anybody? No? Dust. It's actually very low in fat. You can have as much dust as you like.

Doodledog

I'm giving up after this , but surely there are things that would suit everyone, or at least most people (ie no gluten, meat, nuts etc) and would comply with religious constraints. I'm thinking vegetable soup, bean casseroles - that sort of thing. I'm not a dietician (and am not advocating boarding schools - just saying that not giving numerous options isn't necessarily the end of the world), but am coming from the perspective of wanting to ensure that no child goes hungry.

I'm not saying that meals should be compulsory either - just that they should be free for everyone, and not single out particular children, or leave out those deemed to be able to afford to pay but can't. I think it would work better if they were the norm and it wasn't seen as somehow better to opt out and bring a packed lunch, but that's not the only way it could work.

Agreed.

I've no idea how such could be made to work. However, finding a school dinner solution should be top priority - children need good healthy food.

No gluten, nuts, eggs, milk, cheese, meat - would I believe cover the vast majority of allergens and religious plus personal preferences, leaving so many easy, reasonable and healthy alternatives.

Blondiescot

icanhandthemback

Blondiescot
Which area do you live in then? I thought sending children with SEN to mainstream schools was a National Policy. I know a lot of parents who don't agree because their children struggle so much and it would be good to know where they aren't forced into this position.

I'm in Scotland. Until recently, I worked for a charity which supports local families with children with SEN, and I'd estimate that around 90% of the children did not go to mainstream schools. In our local authority area, we do have a number of mainstream primary schools which have separate ASN learning units too. Perhaps that's unusual - I'm not sure what the situation is across the country as a whole.

That may well be the difference then because it certainly isn't like that in the South of England. The pressure for classroom teachers is immense but the children suffer far more where the system doesn't work for them.

icanhandthemback

Blondiescot
Which area do you live in then? I thought sending children with SEN to mainstream schools was a National Policy. I know a lot of parents who don't agree because their children struggle so much and it would be good to know where they aren't forced into this position.

I'm in Scotland. Until recently, I worked for a charity which supports local families with children with SEN, and I'd estimate that around 90% of the children did not go to mainstream schools. In our local authority area, we do have a number of mainstream primary schools which have separate ASN learning units too. Perhaps that's unusual - I'm not sure what the situation is across the country as a whole.

I agree with you Doodledog.

I'm giving up after this , but surely there are things that would suit everyone, or at least most people (ie no gluten, meat, nuts etc) and would comply with religious constraints. I'm thinking vegetable soup, bean casseroles - that sort of thing. I'm not a dietician (and am not advocating boarding schools - just saying that not giving numerous options isn't necessarily the end of the world), but am coming from the perspective of wanting to ensure that no child goes hungry.

I'm not saying that meals should be compulsory either - just that they should be free for everyone, and not single out particular children, or leave out those deemed to be able to afford to pay but can't. I think it would work better if they were the norm and it wasn't seen as somehow better to opt out and bring a packed lunch, but that's not the only way it could work.

Blondiescot
Which area do you live in then? I thought sending children with SEN to mainstream schools was a National Policy. I know a lot of parents who don't agree because their children struggle so much and it would be good to know where they aren't forced into this position.

Blondiescot

icanhandthemback

Not any more, Blondiescot. Parents are encouraged to send their ASD children to Main Stream School and places at Special Schools are at a premium. In my grandson's class, he is far from the only ASD child but is fortunately able to have 1:1. Whilst I would be wary to suggest there has been a vast increase in ASD, I do think that we diagnose better and now what we thought were just fussy eaters really do have an underlying problem. I am also amazed at how many of my children's friends will not eat meat with skin on or on the bone as it puts them off their food!

That's not the case around here. If my child was very fussy or had genuine issues with food, then I think I'd be sending them with a packed lunch which I knew they would eat, rather than taking my chances with school dinners.

I'm not saying that free school dinners should be compulsory.

If parents still wanted to send their children with packed lunches knowing that they would be feeding them a proper meal in the evening then that should be an option.

icanhandthemback

Not any more, Blondiescot. Parents are encouraged to send their ASD children to Main Stream School and places at Special Schools are at a premium. In my grandson's class, he is far from the only ASD child but is fortunately able to have 1:1. Whilst I would be wary to suggest there has been a vast increase in ASD, I do think that we diagnose better and now what we thought were just fussy eaters really do have an underlying problem. I am also amazed at how many of my children's friends will not eat meat with skin on or on the bone as it puts them off their food!

That's not the case around here. If my child was very fussy or had genuine issues with food, then I think I'd be sending them with a packed lunch which I knew they would eat, rather than taking my chances with school dinners.

icanhandthemback

*Doodledog*, I'm not sure Boarding School ways are the answer. Try reading about Boarding School Survivor Syndrome and the various mental health issues plus eating disorders don't bear thinking about. My friend would eat what they gave her and then spend the rest of the playtime in the toilet...it has haunted her all her life.

My brother boarded, I was envious at the time but not so now hearing his story.

Doodledog

*However, with 'less choice' who selects the choices? It seems people have many varied likes and dislikes. On GN we read of people who love peanut butter or hate peanut butter, love cheese or hate cheese, love tofu or hate tofu, love veg or hate veg, etc. Who chooses 'the good balanced' foods?*
I appreciate that that is difficult. But I also think that being 'picky' largely comes from having a lot of choice, and if children get used to a limited choice from the age of four or five they will adapt. In my imaginary scenario there would be a choice of two meals, so that if someone really hated something they wouldn't have to eat it, and even if they weren't keen on the alternative they would probably at least be tempted to try it. Time would tell what was popular and what was often rejected.

As has been said, it is one meal a day, and the parents could supplement it on the days their child didn't fill up at lunch. If packed lunches and unpopular food goes in the bin anyway, I can't see what there is to lose, really. At least it would be a start, and nobody would be hungry.

No peanut butter or anything that could cause an allergic reaction.

A choice of vegetarian, vegan, a meat or fish dish.
And a gluten-free option, ensuring children who are coeliac have first choice.

Four options?

Doodledog, I'm not sure Boarding School ways are the answer. Try reading about Boarding School Survivor Syndrome and the various mental health issues plus eating disorders don't bear thinking about. My friend would eat what they gave her and then spend the rest of the playtime in the toilet...it has haunted her all her life.

My own daughter was picky too. I'm not saying it will be easy - clearly there can't be unlimited choices in school canteens, and I wouldn't want to go back to primary school in 'my day' when you got a plate of gristle and someone stood over you till you finished it. Luckily the middle school were far better, as I did have to stay there, because it was too far to come home as I had in primary (I only stayed when my brother was born and when my mum had appendicitis).

But it would be a start. Would those who object prefer to see nothing done because there would be some children who would refuse to eat either of two choices? They could be the exceptions whose parents were allowed to send them in with packed lunches, but I wouldn't say that they should drive the whole idea of ensuring that no children go hungry.

To use my daughter as an example - she traded the healthy food I sent in her lunch box for crisps and sweets (one of the supervisors told me), so I stopped sending them. She went onto school meals, but had to have the veggie option, which meant that she had no choice, as the only choice was meat or vegetarian, and you had to say which days you were staying at the beginning of the week. She knew that she would be able to fill up when she got home if she left her lunch, but even so, she often ate it, and came to enjoy things that she would have refused left to herself. What do children at boarding schools do? They will have limited choices, I assume, but will survive (and they can't go home every evening and fill up on their favourites).

Nothing will be perfect, and more and more these days every seems to expect systems to accommodate everyone. They sometimes can't (although efforts should be made) and IMO ensuring that every child is at least offered a free hot meal a day is far more important than catering to all choices - particularly as costs have to be taken into account.

icanhandthemback

Not any more, Blondiescot. Parents are encouraged to send their ASD children to Main Stream School and places at Special Schools are at a premium. In my grandson's class, he is far from the only ASD child but is fortunately able to have 1:1. Whilst I would be wary to suggest there has been a vast increase in ASD, I do think that we diagnose better and now what we thought were just fussy eaters really do have an underlying problem. I am also amazed at how many of my children's friends will not eat meat with skin on or on the bone as it puts them off their food!

icanhandthemback I am also amazed at how many of my children's friends will not eat meat with skin on or on the bone as it puts them off their food!

Agreed.

As a fully functioning adult, before we became vegan, I could not stomach skin, a bit of fat, or bone near meat on my plate. No, just No.

icanhandthemback I wish somebody would tell the Neuro-divergent that then maybe my niece wouldn't be in hospital with an eating disorder! My daughter would sooner starve than eat anything spicy (evenly mildly, wet or a host of other things which somebody else (including me) wouldn't bother about. I started off with the mindset that she would eat what was put in front of her if she didn't get a choice...what a learning curve that was!

Indeed.

We've 4 daughters, all with quite different likes and dislikes. Now 18 GC, GGC, GGGC - many more likes and dislikes. Some ADD, some neuro-divergent in other ways -- attempt telling them what to eat!

Not any more, Blondiescot. Parents are encouraged to send their ASD children to Main Stream School and places at Special Schools are at a premium. In my grandson's class, he is far from the only ASD child but is fortunately able to have 1:1. Whilst I would be wary to suggest there has been a vast increase in ASD, I do think that we diagnose better and now what we thought were just fussy eaters really do have an underlying problem. I am also amazed at how many of my children's friends will not eat meat with skin on or on the bone as it puts them off their food!

I totally understand that, icanhandthemback - I worked with children with additional support needs, many of whom had issues around food, but in a mainstream primary school, those children will be in the minority and I'm sure arrangements could be made to take that into account.