Gransnet forums

News & politics

A vision for the future.

(209 Posts)
DaisyAnneReturns Wed 19-Jul-23 14:30:33

Tony Blair's Future of Britain conference has come round yet again. I'll try and give you the links to each of the speakers. This first one is Tony Blair speaking to Kier Starmer.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6AXspycKyo&list=PLd9TfSxRj7iL1t8f3_0SGwu0Q8ROxKfoY&index=1

MaizieD Sat 29-Jul-23 16:14:14

icanhandthemback

What I don't understand, MaizieD, is if it was that easy, why doesn't anybody do it? I know I've asked you before all about the economic measures you think should be taken but I failed my economics exams several times which finished off my professional qualifications is Accountancy!

Money is such a complicated subject, but basically, a sovereign state, i.e. one that issues, and demands the use of its own currency for transactions, is free to issue as much as it likes so long as the money is trusted by its users and so long as it doesn't issue so much that it causes excessive inflation. There is no physical material, such as gold, 'giving value to the money that is issued; that was abandoned in the early 1970s. Since then all the worlds' currencies have only been valued against other currencies.

Even when backed by, say, gold, governments have usually issued enough physical note and coin to ensure that transactions can take place within the domestic economy; if they hadn't the economy would grind to a halt, or some sort of substitute for physical money would have arisen. Like, for instance, men in POW camps during WW2 would use cigarettes as a unit of payment. Issue of physical currency would also accommodate a rising population. If we look at money available to the population of 45million post WW2 and available to the current UK population of some 66 million it is clear that the supply of physical money has expanded hugely and that isn't because it's been 'earned' by trade with other countries.

A great deal of our money is 'created' by commercial banks when they make loans to businesses or individuals. This is completely new money and has nothing to do with money held in the bank's deposit accounts. The money is created, is used in the economy to sustain private enterprise and create of maintain jobs. When the loan is repaid the created money is essentially destroyed, but it has stimulated a great deal of economic activity before that happens. Banks are licenced to create money by the government.

Money issued by the Bank of England is exactly the same. It is created out of thin air, by keying in numbers on a keyboard, or by ordering the manufacture of physical money, paid for by the same 'numbers on a keyboard' method...

Governments 'borrow' money because that's what they've done for hundreds of years, but this could be looked at as providing a safe saving facility for peoples' money, in that the money 'lent' (saved) will always be repaid on request, or, in the case of bonds and gilts, at term. The government pays interest on these 'savings/borrowings'. Individuals and institutions find them a reliable source of income. And have done for hundreds of years... just read some Jane Austen, a heroine's £1,000 invested in the 5%s would give her a reliable £50 p.a income grin

But, during recent moments of financial stress the government used Quantitative Easing to put more money into circulation. It created a situation in which the money for the govt. bond purchases either went to the Treasury for govt expenditure (covid) , or, to the commercial banks to, in theory, lend to businesses to promote growth in the depression following the Global Financial Crisis.

Having said all this, there is absolutely no compelling reason why a government shouldn't cut out the middle man of 'investors/savers' and bond purchases, and just pay for what it purchases directly. Instead of it returning via loan repayments it can return to the government via taxation, or savings and investment.

So, really, to answer your question, 'people' do it all the time... They just have to be careful that they don't create more than is needed and be prepared to tax back excess to control inflation. But inflation's not too much of a worry so long as there are goods and services available to be purchased. There are other functions for taxation.

I'm not sure that conventional economics courses really look at the origin and creation of money.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 29-Jul-23 16:07:46

icanhandthemback

What I don't understand, MaizieD, is if it was that easy, why doesn't anybody do it? I know I've asked you before all about the economic measures you think should be taken but I failed my economics exams several times which finished off my professional qualifications is Accountancy!

These are the views of a minority, currently, icanhandthemback. There does seem to be some substance in them but, as usual in a rebelion, the almost evangelical leaders of this movement are quite arrogant. That doesn't make them wrong but it does make them hard to listen to although Maisie has managed to stick with it.

A couple of quotes:

Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is a macroeconomic theory that says government spending should not be restrained by fears of rising debt.

Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is essentially an offshoot of Keynesianism in that government can spend ad nauseam and commensurately print money without any ill effect. With the historic inflation we are now experiencing, MMT has been thoroughly repudiated

Google will give you many like this, and I expect it will give some more in agreement too.

Glorianny Sat 29-Jul-23 14:32:16

icanhandthemback

What I don't understand, MaizieD, is if it was that easy, why doesn't anybody do it? I know I've asked you before all about the economic measures you think should be taken but I failed my economics exams several times which finished off my professional qualifications is Accountancy!

Possibly because the people it would help don't usually engage or vote and there are thousands of people who do vote who believe in the household budget concept of economics, which means you are actually losing votes. And votes seems to be the main concern of all politicians now, principles having disappeared some time ago.

icanhandthemback Sat 29-Jul-23 14:15:33

What I don't understand, MaizieD, is if it was that easy, why doesn't anybody do it? I know I've asked you before all about the economic measures you think should be taken but I failed my economics exams several times which finished off my professional qualifications is Accountancy!

MaizieD Sat 29-Jul-23 14:13:34

So why attack people who are offering a solution

Because when their 'solutions' have at their base the same economic 'orthodoxy' that the tories have held to ever since Thatcher there is little hope of meaningful change.

MaizieD Sat 29-Jul-23 14:08:50

Glorianny

Whitewavemark2

Glorianny

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

They do have a housing policy. One thing is that they will allow LAs to avoid the “hope value” of land for development, thus being able to buy it much more cheaply, provided it is used to build affordable housing or social housing.

That's tinkering again. It's no use having land to build on if you can't afford to build houses anyway. A policy which gave LA's allowances, grants or some financial rewards for building residential property would help.. Most LAs are not building any houses. The government gives out millions in grants to new businesses. Why not do the same for housing? There would be financial benefits (less to pay out to landlords in benefits) and huge health benefits,

It's that new economic model again, Glorianny.

Until politicians acknowledge that the government is perfectly able to invest what is needed in infrastructure (in which I'm including housing) without having to issue bonds or tax to cover the costs, we're going to be stuck with the 'we can't afford it' mantra, or make disastrous alliances with the private sector (as in PPI).

It's not exactly a new concept, seeing as that was what Keynes was proposing back in the 1930s, and it is growth promoting in so many ways.

Glorianny Sat 29-Jul-23 14:00:34

DaisyAnneReturns

I don't see either of them as ignorant Glorianny. I think they, and others in their position, have more insight into how to achieve their priorities than we can possibly have.

It's a bit like the fishing analogy. You want to feed people today. So do I. So no doubt, do others, including Starmer et al. However, we are not responsible for the management of the assets. They have to ensure enough for today and also enough to build a sustainable and viable future. That is what anyone running a business, a huge corporation or a country must look at.

We may stamp our feet and shout "I want it now", should we choose to do so. That is because we don't have responsibility for the outcome. It has always been the case that with great power comes great responsibility. Leaders should be people who can take difficult decisions when necessary for the long term.

It's often the extremists, Johnson, Corbyn, etc., who believe that they can get away with doing everything that looks like the right move instantly, while taking no responsibility for the future.

The politics that come with the job means they have to understand that if you're not in power, you can do nothing. FPTP is a system that makes this particularly true. I don't think Starmer is being dishonest nor is he ignorant. I just think he is keeping his powder dry for the time being.

More than anything, we are in this position because of the Tory government. So why attack people who are offering a solution and possibly hand power back to the Tories, simply because you can't have what you want "now". I can never understand that.

Perhaps because there are NOW 120,000 children who are effectively homeless DaisyAnneReturns and whatever scheme may improve things in the future they need housing now and not sometime in the future, 'maybe' The NHS was not brought about by gradual change, the housing problems of the 40,50s and 60s were not solved by gradual change but by policies and beliefs that it wasn't good enough to leave people in poor housing and ill health for a generation or so.
And actually the concept that it is essential to do things gradually is why I believe Blar and Starmer are either ignorant or uncaring, because if you have seen the terrible conditions some children are living under, and all you can offer is pie tomorrow and never pie today, you must be one or the other.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 29-Jul-23 13:28:28

I don't see either of them as ignorant Glorianny. I think they, and others in their position, have more insight into how to achieve their priorities than we can possibly have.

It's a bit like the fishing analogy. You want to feed people today. So do I. So no doubt, do others, including Starmer et al. However, we are not responsible for the management of the assets. They have to ensure enough for today and also enough to build a sustainable and viable future. That is what anyone running a business, a huge corporation or a country must look at.

We may stamp our feet and shout "I want it now", should we choose to do so. That is because we don't have responsibility for the outcome. It has always been the case that with great power comes great responsibility. Leaders should be people who can take difficult decisions when necessary for the long term.

It's often the extremists, Johnson, Corbyn, etc., who believe that they can get away with doing everything that looks like the right move instantly, while taking no responsibility for the future.

The politics that come with the job means they have to understand that if you're not in power, you can do nothing. FPTP is a system that makes this particularly true. I don't think Starmer is being dishonest nor is he ignorant. I just think he is keeping his powder dry for the time being.

More than anything, we are in this position because of the Tory government. So why attack people who are offering a solution and possibly hand power back to the Tories, simply because you can't have what you want "now". I can never understand that.

Glorianny Sat 29-Jul-23 10:49:47

Whitewavemark2

Glorianny

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

They do have a housing policy. One thing is that they will allow LAs to avoid the “hope value” of land for development, thus being able to buy it much more cheaply, provided it is used to build affordable housing or social housing.

That's tinkering again. It's no use having land to build on if you can't afford to build houses anyway. A policy which gave LA's allowances, grants or some financial rewards for building residential property would help.. Most LAs are not building any houses. The government gives out millions in grants to new businesses. Why not do the same for housing? There would be financial benefits (less to pay out to landlords in benefits) and huge health benefits,

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 29-Jul-23 10:32:26

I know what the word means Oreo. I asked Freya because the seemed to be using the word out of its usual context. I know the use, and even the meaning of words can be changed to fit different cultural views, so I felt the enquiry worthwhile. I didn't think you would know the reason why Freya used it that way or I would have ask you. Sorry about that.

A question for you though, while you are there. Where you originally a Mumsnet member? I've only noticed you on here fairly recently.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 29-Jul-23 10:28:18

Glorianny

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

They do have a housing policy. One thing is that they will allow LAs to avoid the “hope value” of land for development, thus being able to buy it much more cheaply, provided it is used to build affordable housing or social housing.

Katie59 Sat 29-Jul-23 10:06:15

I liked Blair and happen to agree with his views on climate change, we should not spend so much that it impoverishes the population.
It’s a shame that he got us involved in the Iraq war and led to Afghanistan, with hindsight he was wrong, although if the Tories were in power it would have been no different. I’m hoping that Starmer will have a similar style of politics if/when he gets elected, but I fear he won’t have a outright majority.

Glorianny Sat 29-Jul-23 09:57:35

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

Oreo Sat 29-Jul-23 09:24:35

Look the word up in a dictionary DaisyAnnReturns

I’m with Glorianny and MaizieD on this one, things have to change as so many ideas and policies aren’t working.
Radical goals yes, sometimes, but they may never happen, so radical steps may just be the answer.
I see so many people in my area that life is getting so much worse for that a little tweaking just won’t do anything.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 29-Jul-23 09:09:46

noxious Freya5? Would you like to explain how and why that word applies to my post?

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 29-Jul-23 09:05:42

Freya5

Lilyflower

I think 'the brightest and best' people who haven't an ounce of common sense and who think they are better than the rest of we poor mortals are the ones who make the most mischief. Their arrogance has to be seen to be believed.
ULEZ
15 minute walking cities
No meat, sugar, alcohol, lawns, cars, gas boilers, sweeteners to name a few recent demonisations
War on the motorist
Covid Lockdown
ER, BLM, WEF, WHO.
Brightest and best the lot of them.

Someone recently, on TV, can't remember his name, said this about much of what you have listed, " a suffocating, undemocratic imposition" . In a nutshell.

It is "in a nutshell" only if that is your bias.

I'm sure you will agree that not everyone shares that opinion. That neither makes you correct and others incorrect, or vice versa. What you are trying to see as facts are perspectives created by different biases.

I, for instance, strongly disagree with the person you quote. I agree that items in the list exist (although I see no reason for the pejorative and biased language used to describe them). However, you seem to see life from the view of the total libertarian. A person who can do what they want whenever and however they want.

I see personal liberty as essential but limited by how it impinges on other people's equal right to that liberty.

Your statement gives us a perspective view of the list, not a factual view of it. For all your apparent need to have complete liberty, you seem unwilling to compromise to enable others to have theirs. This too could be seen as arrogance.

Freya5 Sat 29-Jul-23 07:00:41

DaisyAnneReturns

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

Ooh I say, what a noxious retort.

Freya5 Sat 29-Jul-23 06:59:09

Lilyflower

I think 'the brightest and best' people who haven't an ounce of common sense and who think they are better than the rest of we poor mortals are the ones who make the most mischief. Their arrogance has to be seen to be believed.
ULEZ
15 minute walking cities
No meat, sugar, alcohol, lawns, cars, gas boilers, sweeteners to name a few recent demonisations
War on the motorist
Covid Lockdown
ER, BLM, WEF, WHO.
Brightest and best the lot of them.

Someone recently, on TV, can't remember his name, said this about much of what you have listed, " a suffocating, undemocratic imposition" . In a nutshell.

DaisyAnneReturns Fri 28-Jul-23 20:22:49

I think reading the posts on GN give some insight into why, Ilovecheese.

I would like to think people would be persauded by truth but we don't seem to have any evidence that they will. There are so many reasons why people are pursauded that one person or group knows what it's doing and another doesn't and it seems to have little to do with the truth.

Ilovecheese Fri 28-Jul-23 15:21:04

There seems to be such an unwillingness in both the major parties to admit that things that were supposed to happen as a result of a policy, just didn't happen.

Water was privatised because private companies were supposed to supply the money for investment. They didn't. The policy failed.

The bedroom tax was supposed to free up social housing as single occupants moved into smaller properties. There weren't enough smaller properties for people to move into. if they moved into private rented smaller properties the housing benefit was more than for the larger social homes. The state had to pay out more .
The policy failed.

The two child benefit limit was supposed to lead to smaller families and more parents into paid work. It didn't. less parents moved into paid work and family size did not decrease.
The policy failed.

Pfis were supposed to save the state money, they turned out to do the opposite.
The policy failed.

Why can't these failures be admitted? Why not say "it was worth a try but it didn't work, let's think of something else.

DaisyAnneReturns Fri 28-Jul-23 15:00:49

MaizieD

^ It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed^

I have to agree with Glorrianny that our problems are with our failed economic model. Tinkering using the same model isn't going to solve much.

You will not convince either the majority of voters, majority of economists, or the majority of party strategists, before or probably after the election, of this though Maizie. Success is founded on the possible.

I now have two campaigns that need to run outside the next (presumably non-Tory) government.

1. PR
2. A new form of economic thinking.

I would like Citizen's Juries for both and, should they win over the public, the then government could adopt them for the second term.

MaizieD Fri 28-Jul-23 14:22:44

^ It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed^

I have to agree with Glorrianny that our problems are with our failed economic model. Tinkering using the same model isn't going to solve much.

DaisyAnneReturns Fri 28-Jul-23 14:13:53

Basically I agree with you Grantanow but, going back to 1962 the Conservatives ran financially unviable hospital building programmes for, to date, 43 years. Labour ran a financially unviable hospital building programme for 13 years and it was the continuation of the Conservative programme.

I know it was part of his downfall and he should have done better but I can't help feeling I've been brainwashed smile It does seem that for 56 years no one has worked out how to fund hospitals.

Casdon Fri 28-Jul-23 14:08:46

Oreo

Casdon we’ve already had the unmade bed PM😂
Radical steps if needed don’t have to be disastrous, I imagine the NHS concept would have been thought radical in it’s day.
I think the time could be right for doing things really differently next time around, and hope Labour will be thinking what’s best for the majority in this country. People who work hard, want to get on the housing ladder and be able to pay bills while having a holiday now and then.Also to take good care of the disabled and disadvantaged.
It doesn’t need all policies to be radical but one or two if it will make a big difference would be welcome.
I liked Tony Blair and a lot of what he says still makes sense, especially what he says about climate change and the UK not rushing ahead and badly affecting citizens, that whatever the UK does on green issues ( we should still try) will not effect the outcome unless China the US and India also do it.I think I read that what China has put out recently is more than we have put out harmfully, since the Industrial Revolution began.

I’m in favour of radical goals Oreo, but I’m not in favour of radical steps, if that makes sense. I’m fed up with the posturing without the substance behind implementation, and the lack of learning from the things that don’t go as well as anticipated. Caution and a step by step approach that yields results is what we need at the moment to settle this country back onto an even keel in my view.

Glorianny Fri 28-Jul-23 14:06:10

Well free education, comprehensive education, the NHS, even the vote were all radical policies in their day.
As perhaps was selling off the utilities and railways. What is obvious is that privatisation has massively failed. And a radical new approach is needed.
Anyone who looks at the figures for homelessness, the massive use of foodbanks and the huge personal debt problem can see that things are falling apart. The only question really being how far will people like Blair and Starmer permit things to go and is it really "future thinking" to think you can tweek little things and leave the big problems untackled, because you fear offending some section of the electorate.