Is UK An Elite Dictaorship?

MaizieD

^It's really interesting that both you, Maisie and GrannyGravy, interpreted my post as me saying I want something specific to happen. I felt I'd had made it completely clear that this was not about what I want or don't want, but about what is democratic.^

Ahhh. That's the problem with words, isn't it? People don't always interpret them the way the speaker/writer intended.

So, so right. One day we may have "chat" GN, like a huge Teams of Zoom meeting.

It would, of course, be amazingly different

Just like any relationship once it has broken down reestablishing the union is very difficult, maybe you remain friends but you don’t often get into bed together.
Accepting EU rules to join a Customs Union would make some difference, there are a lot of regulations that have to be changed just to achieve that.
The EU are likely to be pretty tough, no discussions unless we accept freedom of movement, so a lot has got to change before any customs union.

It's really interesting that both you, Maisie and GrannyGravy, interpreted my post as me saying I want something specific to happen. I felt I'd had made it completely clear that this was not about what I want or don't want, but about what is democratic.

Ahhh. That's the problem with words, isn't it? People don't always interpret them the way the speaker/writer intended.

It's really interesting that both you, Maisie and GrannyGravy, interpreted my post as me saying I want something specific to happen. I felt I'd had made it completely clear that this was not about what I want or don't want, but about what is democratic.

It really doesn't matter whether the time has passed or not. What I was saying is that, should somebody choose to oppose the outcome and/or try and change it in whatever legal way they felt possible, that would be democratic.

I'm not sure whether you're saying you, personally think it would be undemocratic to do this. I don't think you are, but many of those who voted leave, do seem to think that it would be.

It is quite Trumpian to think that way. However, many leavers do seem to think this. I was simply saying that I cannot understand why they think like that. What prompts them to mentally turn democracy on its head.

However, should we decide on a further referendum, it would be a democratic thing to do.

Do you think so, DAR?. I think the time for it is past. It wold have been better to have had a second referendum of the plan for leaving the EU, but only at the time when plans were being made.

Now Brexit has been accomplished and we know what huge problems it has caused I think it's better for our representatives to take stock of the mood of the country, start building bridges with the EU and take it from there. A referendum offers too much opportunity for more lies and further division.

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnneReturns

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

Regarding the referendum, the fault lies with David Cameron who stated from the beginning that the results would be honoured and acted upon

The party had two choices leave the EU or go back on its word…

Yup. Cameron said and did some very stupid things when in office, then ran away as fast as his little legs would carry him.

Now the UK is suffering badly as a result.

I can see what you're saying and would certainly agree that Cameron dealt with it very badly. What I don't understand is why people think that any democratic decision can't be overturned or changed. Perhaps I'm missing something, but as far as I'm aware this is never been the case, no one in the past has suggested that a decision could not be changed or overturned.

Are you saying we should have had a second referendum on whether or not to leave the EU?

Are you saying we should have had a second referendum on whether or not to leave the EU? GrannyGravy13

No. I am asking a question not suggesting an answer.

However, should we decide on a further referendum, it would be a democratic thing to do.

Whitewavemark2

I certainly don’t think we should ever, ever have a referendum about such an important issue again.

It has done so much damage to the fabric of our society, with death, division and violence resulting.

And I’m not including actual Brexit in this calculation.

In future the way forward must be decided by our elected representatives who have put a party manifesto in front of the electorate and we have voted on it.

Nor me. The Brexit referendum has divided people as never before.

I didn't agree with Thatcher on much, but she was right about referendums:

'The principled argument she made against a referendum remains as valid today as it was in 1975. Without the protections and definition afforded by a written constitution, referendums, she said, sacrificed parliamentary sovereignty to political expediency.

In a system such as Britain’s, that threatened minorities by trading liberal democracy for majoritarianism.

“Perhaps the late Lord Attlee was right,” she observed, “when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.”

www.ft.com/content/d620b8c6-5fc9-11dc-b0fe-0000779fd2ac

Whitewavemark2

Yes tbh I would have voted remain, but the fact that my offspring were and are also strong remainers reinforced my opinion, and my area voted strongly to remain😄😄

Like a mirror image - strange.

I have never been influenced by family members in my voting choice before.

I had been poorly, and probably thinking about my longevity or lack of it.

Yes tbh I would have voted remain, but the fact that my offspring were and are also strong remainers reinforced my opinion, and my area voted strongly to remain😄😄

Like a mirror image - strange.

Whitewavemark2

I certainly don’t think we should ever, ever have a referendum about such an important issue again.

It has done so much damage to the fabric of our society, with death, division and violence resulting.

And I’m not including actual Brexit in this calculation.

In future the way forward must be decided by our elected representatives who have put a party manifesto in front of the electorate and we have voted on it.

I agree that there were probably a fair few voters who voted without knowing the seriousness of coming out of the EU.

I was on the fence even in the polling booth, after much soul searching my X went in leave.

Why?

Because I knew that was were all our AC were putting their X and it was their future.

As it happened our area voted massively for leave and my one X in the remain box wouldn’t have changed a thing.

I do think that neither side had a Plan B, as they both thought Plan A (remain) would win.

I certainly don’t think we should ever, ever have a referendum about such an important issue again.

It has done so much damage to the fabric of our society, with death, division and violence resulting.

And I’m not including actual Brexit in this calculation.

In future the way forward must be decided by our elected representatives who have put a party manifesto in front of the electorate and we have voted on it.

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnneReturns

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

Regarding the referendum, the fault lies with David Cameron who stated from the beginning that the results would be honoured and acted upon

The party had two choices leave the EU or go back on its word…

Yup. Cameron said and did some very stupid things when in office, then ran away as fast as his little legs would carry him.

Now the UK is suffering badly as a result.

I can see what you're saying and would certainly agree that Cameron dealt with it very badly. What I don't understand is why people think that any democratic decision can't be overturned or changed. Perhaps I'm missing something, but as far as I'm aware this is never been the case, no one in the past has suggested that a decision could not be changed or overturned.

Are you saying we should have had a second referendum on whether or not to leave the EU?

As it was patently obvious that neither the Remain or the Leave camp had any plan whatsoever for what should happen if the vote was for Leave, then I think it very reasonable that a plan should have been worked out and put to the electorate for their approval.

For, let's face it, there were so many different interpretations of what 'leave the EU' actually entailed that the electorate should have had a far better idea of all the options available, from 'soft' to 'hard', and what the implications of each 'plan' might be and then been given a an opportunity to choose which they preferred. In a properly run referendum, with a need for a supermajority and a clampdown on covert 'dark' advertising.

As it was, we have ended up with an unfinished and damaging version which pleases very few.

I think closer working in the form of a CU or SM will be relatively easy to sell particularly as such a large majority now think we should never have left.

Katie59

Are you saying we should have had a second referendum on whether or not to leave the EU?

Now is not the time there is far too much hostile sentiment on both sides, first a Customs Union but even that is going to require freedom of movement.

Totally agree?

Are you saying we should have had a second referendum on whether or not to leave the EU?

Now is not the time there is far too much hostile sentiment on both sides, first a Customs Union but even that is going to require freedom of movement.

DaisyAnneReturns

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

Regarding the referendum, the fault lies with David Cameron who stated from the beginning that the results would be honoured and acted upon

The party had two choices leave the EU or go back on its word…

Yup. Cameron said and did some very stupid things when in office, then ran away as fast as his little legs would carry him.

Now the UK is suffering badly as a result.

I can see what you're saying and would certainly agree that Cameron dealt with it very badly. What I don't understand is why people think that any democratic decision can't be overturned or changed. Perhaps I'm missing something, but as far as I'm aware this is never been the case, no one in the past has suggested that a decision could not be changed or overturned.

Are you saying we should have had a second referendum on whether or not to leave the EU?

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

Regarding the referendum, the fault lies with David Cameron who stated from the beginning that the results would be honoured and acted upon

The party had two choices leave the EU or go back on its word…

Yup. Cameron said and did some very stupid things when in office, then ran away as fast as his little legs would carry him.

Now the UK is suffering badly as a result.

I can see what you're saying and would certainly agree that Cameron dealt with it very badly. What I don't understand is why people think that any democratic decision can't be overturned or changed. Perhaps I'm missing something, but as far as I'm aware this is never been the case, no one in the past has suggested that a decision could not be changed or overturned.

GrannyGravy13

Regarding the referendum, the fault lies with David Cameron who stated from the beginning that the results would be honoured and acted upon

The party had two choices leave the EU or go back on its word…

Yup. Cameron said and did some very stupid things when in office, then ran away as fast as his little legs would carry him.

Now the UK is suffering badly as a result.

Regarding the referendum, the fault lies with David Cameron who stated from the beginning that the results would be honoured and acted upon

The party had two choices leave the EU or go back on its word…

May I ask again, what are those who voted leave trying to say, trying to effect, when they say it is "undemocratic" to oppose our leaving the EU after a 48/52 advisory referendum?

I think if others understood that, we could have a more useful conversation.

Democracy isn't just voting in elections. That is an extremely narrow view of it.

Democracy is about freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom to oppose.

It is also about running campaigns in which all materials are accessible for anyone to see and present counter arguments to (I leave aside the question of honesty)

It is about transparent accountability of the government to the governed and about probity in public office.

It's about equality under the law, about consideration of minority views and respect for all individuals .

So much more than voting every so often.

(PR would be more representative)

Are there more democratic countries than the UK, maybe, Switzerland possibly that has frequent referendums, some that overturn government wishes.
If we think that elections every 5 yrs is not democratic enough there is that alternative, we could have a referendum on PR and some other contentious issues.

Thank you growstuff and DAR

DAR Johnson took us out of the EU but it is now up-to successive governments and prime ministers to work out next steps. Johnson has gone and hopefully stays away.
From one point of view, the UK has had a fast turnover of prime ministers in recent years and at least there’s no sitting despot at the helm. So a strength and not a weakness of the parliamentary system? It could be much worse?

MaizieD

GrannyRose15

Will someone please tell me why we vote?

We vote and accept that the majority vote will win, but no-one with any iota of intelligence surely believes that the 'will' of the majority represents the 'will' of the entire population?

I don't consider myself to be losing the argument by citing Hitler. If you are going to believe in a trope used by one of the most vile dictators of the 20th Century to justify the appalling exercise of his will I think you need to recognise that fact and have serious rethink.

As others have pointed out, our British concept of democracy includes consideration of minorities and opposition to the majority's view is not considered traitorous.

I can only agree with this.

Many have a sanitised, black and white film idea of what Hitler did and how he got to power. So few are left who actually saw war. Unless you lived in the Channel Islands, no British territory was occupied. Most have no idea why other countries fear Populist leaders. Our cities were never flattened as those were on the continent, particularly in Germany itself. The sound of Jackboots never echoed in our streets.

There is no virtue in foolhardiness, and Johnson was foolhardy in the way he took us out of the EU. It would have been perfectly possible to take us out in a way that caused far less damage. There is no virtue in claiming that you can do what you cannot do. Johnson claimed he had an "oven ready" deal; there was never any such thing.

There is no bravery in lying to your country.