Conservative "NHS week"

foxie48 interesting point but if there’s a 10k shortfall in doctors is that because the Nhs isn’t actively recruiting from abroad? Is the Nhs still wedded to best buck for the bang management philosophy?

Fleurpepper

ronib

46 percent of doctors joining NHS England are from abroad. If pay and conditions are thought to be unacceptable to British born and trained medics, why does the NHS continue to attract migrant doctors and nurses? And let’s be thankful and honest that it does.

It would be very interesting to see where from?
I'd hazard a guess that few are from Europe.

One big factor is as MaizieD describes- but another is language. Most doctors from abroad will have studied English at least until University, but not German, French, Italian, or any other European language- barring them from practising there.

You’d be wrong on that one Fleupepper, as 8% of doctors in the UK (10,862) reported an EU nationality in the last survey in 2022. A lot of them will be in permanent roles I would think, not trainees.

"So I agree with foxie48 about leakage and theft but so long as the Uk attracts sufficient well qualified medics to fill the vacancies left by Uk born and trained doctors and nurses, nothing much will change."

But I don't think we do or we wouldn't have the current 10,000+ vacancies for doctors. We could of course stop training doctors and just try to recruit them from other countries, that at least would stop the wastage of training that benefits other countries. I am obviously not serious, what we need to do is pay them a proper salary and look at measures that would make their working lives less stressful.

DH found something dodgy he has seen GP, referred to hospital for initial consultation, with a biopsy the following week, all within a three week timeframe.

NHS is still working and there when needed.

My local hospital recently gave my husband kind and good treatment so I rather think MaizieD it’s recent experience which alerted me to the very international spread of doctors and nurses working in the NHS.
My other experience was hearing about the number of newly qualified NHS doctors leaving to work in Australia - seems the place to be.
So I agree with foxie48 about leakage and theft but so long as the Uk attracts sufficient well qualified medics to fill the vacancies left by Uk born and trained doctors and nurses, nothing much will change.

Ronib we attract doctors from overseas because our training is recognised as being very good, we pay better than India etc and our hospitals are generally better equipped so the flow is "one way". We rob poorer countries of their brightest and best and leak our own doctors to Australia, New Zealand, America and Canada. It's called market forces. However, I doubt many British patients would want to be treated in a hospital in India etc although there are wonderful facilities for those with lots of money most doctors work in hospitals that are pretty basic offering pretty basic care.
I see you have got your 46% from Migration Watch but the 2022 figure from the House of Commons Library is 32.6%
"Overall, 16.5% of staff report a nationality other than British. For doctors this figure is 32.6%, and for nurses it is 23.7%. Almost one in six doctors and one in seven nurses report an Asian nationality.21 Nov 2022"
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7783/CBP-7783.pdf

ronib

46 percent of doctors joining NHS England are from abroad. If pay and conditions are thought to be unacceptable to British born and trained medics, why does the NHS continue to attract migrant doctors and nurses? And let’s be thankful and honest that it does.

It would be very interesting to see where from?
I'd hazard a guess that few are from Europe.

One big factor is as MaizieD describes- but another is language. Most doctors from abroad will have studied English at least until University, but not German, French, Italian, or any other European language- barring them from practising there.

ronib

46 percent of doctors joining NHS England are from abroad. If pay and conditions are thought to be unacceptable to British born and trained medics, why does the NHS continue to attract migrant doctors and nurses? And let’s be thankful and honest that it does.

Perhaps, ronib, you should ask your Indian medical adviser (unless they happen to be British born and raised, of course)

I suspect it's because the NHS has always been praised as an excellent service and they don't realise just how appallingly it has been dragged down in the past decade.

This will be a week of Tory lies, diversions, half-truths and, if needed, dead cats.

46 percent of doctors joining NHS England are from abroad. If pay and conditions are thought to be unacceptable to British born and trained medics, why does the NHS continue to attract migrant doctors and nurses? And let’s be thankful and honest that it does.

I'm sure you are right foxie. However, he really doesn't "get" politics. Although I find it hard to feel sympathy for that, it should be clearly annoying for his party but they seem to have given up.

Well, to be honest, their "stop the boats week" turned into farce, so I expect this will be the same.🙄

I think it may be to persuade people that they are doing the "right" thing by not negotiating with the BMA. I'm sure there are some people who genuinely think that doctors are well paid and if you are on a fairly low wage, I can understand that. However, if doctors feel the stress and poor morale of working in the NHS is not "worth" what they are paid and they can earn more whilst having a better work/life balance, then that is what they will do, just like anyone else in the work place.

It would be reasonable to think that they have polled the areas they hope/need to win. But Sunak's grasp of politics seems to be about as good as his grasp of both business and the lives lived on lower incomes, so I have my doubts about that.

It is the case though, the these Children of Thatcher are as entrenched in Privatisation as some on the left are in Nationalisation and each believe it appears, with no doubt whatsoever, that they are right.

DaisyAnneReturns

We have also been told about the changes in cancer targets? Has anyone read a good explanation of these changes?

No.

What I don’t understand is why on earth is the Tory party highlighting one their worst failures of the wretched 13 years of failure?

Particularly that labour are so far ahead in the polls over this particularly issue, that they are out of sight.

I get that they are trying to blame the doctors for the latest debacle, but people are simply not buying it.

We have also been told about the changes in cancer targets? Has anyone read a good explanation of these changes?

Absolutely foxie.

Totally agree foxie.

Hypocritical and despicable.

Well said foxie48!

It's another attempt at focusing people's anger on doctors for the increase in waiting times rather than where it should lie ie with a government that has been in power for 13 years! It is so short sighted not to pay doctors properly as it costs the NHS more in the long run because highly qualified doctors leave to work in other countries where their skill and experience is properly recognised, or they leave to work for drug companies or other similar jobs where their skills are seen as valuable and transferable or they give themselves a pay rise and improve their work/life balance by going part time and doing the odd locum shift to more than make up the difference. Doctors have every right to expect to be paid commensurate with their level of skill and training and currently, they are not. Doctors also spend too much time trying to fix problems within the NHS that are not of their making. ie not enough beds and nowhere to move recovered patients resulting in patients coming in sicker than should be and needing longer and more expensive care, broken equipment, shortage of staff of all types and grades, finding somewhere to park and eat whilst on duty, etc etc.