More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

If only all that a school required was a large car park and computer hook ups. Things would be so much simpler

Joseann

Of course not, Glorianny, but in a discussion such as this about life and death situations, I wouldn't dream of pitting one group of children against another. Children are children, whoever they maybe, wherever they are educated, whatever, and their safety is paramount. Attack the politicians by all means, I'm in agreement with that, but implying that their children would be immune to upheaval and their schools automatically safe is unfair. They may very well be affected as I confirmed to Fleurpepper earlier.
But no, they wouldnt be sent home or crowded at short notice, because their schools have a team of maintenance staff on hand anyway. Oh, and they work all summer through the holidays.

Joseann Don't try to blame the schools! Every secondary school I know has a Business/Finance Manager, who is often a member of the senior management, and a team of maintenance staff, who work throughout the holidays.

You seem to be underestimating the scale of the work involved and responsibility for capital projects. Even a comprehensive survey for a secondary school is likely to cost at least six figures and the work itself will run into the millions. Schools just don't have that kind of money in their budgets, however good the Business Manager and site maintenance staff are. There is no way any of them could know what is lurking behind cladding without a proper survey. (My ex-husband was a qualified building surveyor, who spent most of his career knocking holes in walls and ceilings of public buildings.) They just don't have the money in their budgets for this kind of specialist and extensive work and it's not the responsibility of the school anyway to replace defective ceilings.

If schools have persistent problems or suspect something serious is going on, they make an application to the DfE for a grant. A retired civil servant is on record as claiming that many of these applications were ignored by ministers and it's a matter of public record that the amount paid in capital grants reduced by 50% from 2010. I personally know of two schools which were scheduled for rebuilds over the last ten years. Money had been spent on plans and applications for planning permission etc, but the plans were cancelled. (My local hospital is on the same situation, by the way.)

This has absolutely nothing to do with private schools being more efficient at maintaining their buildings.

Hunt has now said that the government will cover the costs, but it will come out of the existing education budget, which will mean something else will be squeezed. He's also said the costs of transport to alternative teaching spaces and catering will need to be met from the schools' budgets.

According to this morning's News, the Treasury said yesterday that there will no new money! (That's after Hunt's morning promises)

Happygirl79
My MP, James Duddridge sends his son to a local comprehensive. This summer the son has been volunteering with us at a local charity shop.

MerylStreep

Happygirl79
My MP, James Duddridge sends his son to a local comprehensive. This summer the son has been volunteering with us at a local charity shop.

Is Kingsdown School in his constituency?

Just like two previous posters, I am now leaving the discussion because another poster seems to know so much more about the sector I work in, as well as in which a family member has spent years organising multi million pound building projects for schools as well as being responsible for their maintenance.
To be clear, I am not blaming the state schools at all but the system, and successive governments in charge. For example in this discussion , I blame the pittance paid for maintenance staff, £20k in state schools, when the private sector pays in access of £50k, and i blame the poor resources they have available to them. So of course, this has absolutely everything to do with private schools being more efficient at maintaining their buildings. I would also like to point out, that as usual, I was talking about primary schools, not secondary which I know little about, but if you can find me one primary which has a bursar with a team of accounts personnel, plus a premises manager who has his team of facilities staff, then we can compare.
I am fed up with having everything I say on private schools misconstrued for the benefit of an argument when I have far more knowledge about compliance and H & S in the independent than you could shake a stick at. Thank you to those who listen and even if you disagree have the courtesy to not be rude and condescending.
Oh, and I won't be bothering to report from the 🐎 mouth how any private schools affected are dealing with the issue this week.
Off to the ⛱️ now while colleagues I know prepare this term to have weeks of more than usually tough compliance inspecting in schools ahead of them.

Joseann This is not a maintenance problem, This is an original building construction problem and schools have no control whatsoever over the construction methods used for their buildings.

If schools have buildings built of a material with a 30 year life and the 30 years are well past and the walls, floors and ceilings built of this material are decaying dangerously in the way designed into them from day 1, then there is really very little a maintenance manager can do to keep the buildings safe for occupation.

If you know how this can be done, you could make your fortune.

Chardy

According to this morning's News, the Treasury said yesterday that there will no new money! (That's after Hunt's morning promises)

Quite extraordinary as the Chancellor is supposed to be in charge of the Treasury.

I suspect that the morning promise was for show only, it made it look as though, just for once, the government really cared and was resolved on immediate action which wouldn't place any burden on school budgets.

But really there was no intention to bear the cost. No doubt the hope is that everyone will remember Hunt's grand gesture of the morning and will have missed the Treasury's contradiction.

I have seen estimates that some 20% of Britain's 22,000 schools might be affected. That's 4,500 schools. While this might be a vast exaggeration I'm sure there will be far more than the 100+ already identified. The departmental budget won't cover it at all.

No new money and costs coming from the existing budget are one and the same thing. No contradiction

I will ertainly answer you Monica and then buzz off, by maintenance, I don't just mean those who do simple repair jobs, but those in the team who have already taken advice from structural engineers and architects, and who have spent all this weekend re arranging the sites so the children can return this week with no disruption. Therein lies the difference, and yes, all down to money.
Must go now.

I can't help thinking that somewhere in Westminster a group of Tory bigwigs are sitting calculating how long the surveys could take, how long they can put off releasing the results, what's the smallest amount of money they can commit and how soon they could call a general election. And there couldn't possibly be any connections there at all could there?

Germanshepherdsmum

No new money and costs coming from the existing budget are one and the same thing. No contradiction

The contradiction is in the Chancellor announcing that they will do whatever it takes and the Treasury then saying, 'Nope, it will come out of existing budget'.

Budget, we are then told by a former permanent secretary, that was halved by our now PM when he was Chancellor.

It's been known about for a long time. When Labour were last jn power, in 2010, they had set aside funds to repair the affected buildings, along came the Tories, and Gove, and cancelled the whole scheme.
The sooner the Tories are out, the better.

MaizieD

Germanshepherdsmum

No new money and costs coming from the existing budget are one and the same thing. No contradiction

The contradiction is in the Chancellor announcing that they will do whatever it takes and the Treasury then saying, 'Nope, it will come out of existing budget'.

Budget, we are then told by a former permanent secretary, that was halved by our now PM when he was Chancellor.

Perhaps GSM didn't watch the LK programme yesterday- where very clear promises were made.

Looks like Germanshepherdsmum is one of the 700,000 viewers who have stopped watching the programme since Laura Kuenssberg took over the show.

I can’t stand the woman so no, I never watch it now.

Joseann

I will ertainly answer you Monica and then buzz off, by maintenance, I don't just mean those who do simple repair jobs, but those in the team who have already taken advice from structural engineers and architects, and who have spent all this weekend re arranging the sites so the children can return this week with no disruption. Therein lies the difference, and yes, all down to money.
Must go now.

Oh yes? So site maintenance staff are capable of demolishing and rebuilding rooves, are they? I think not! And it takes longer than a couple of weeks to do the job.

Germanshepherdsmum

I can’t stand the woman so no, I never watch it now.

Looks like we are not alone 😂

MOnica I couldn't agree with you more! Yes, it's down to money, but it's also down to expertise in recognising RAAC and asbestos - and how to remove them. Even a single householder couldn't get the job done overnight, without somebody who knew what they were doing.

MerylStreep

Looks like Germanshepherdsmum is one of the 700,000 viewers who have stopped watching the programme since Laura Kuenssberg took over the show.

It was the headlines on BBC News yesterday so I doubt if it would have been possible to miss it, you didn’t need to watch LK to know what was said. It sounds to me like the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing between the government departments as there is still conflicting information about who is paying what.

I. must admit that the blustering Education Secretary did not fill mewith hope. It is clear that the right hand and the left hand are not working in tune .

^ It sounds to me like the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing between the government departments as there is still conflicting information about who is paying what.^

There really is a crucial question to be asked, isn't there?

Just who is in charge at the Treasury?

Wouldn't it have been a bit disastrous in the 2008 financial crisis if the Treasury had overruled the Chancellor and the PM, who are in charge of the country and its finances, and not allowed the QE that saved the banks (and people's bank accounts?

The Guardian headline says that the Treasury has no intention of funding the crumbling schools.

Sunak is refusing to take the blame.

I think it's an attempt at double-speak - maybe trying to repeat Johnson's promises to do whatever it took to defeat Covid by saying he'd spend however much is needed. He just conveniently forgot to mention that it will come out of the existing budget and the Treasury won't fund items such as transport.

Whitewavemark2

The Guardian headline says that the Treasury has no intention of funding the crumbling schools.

Sunak is refusing to take the blame.

So who else blocked the spending on buildings when he was Chancellor?