More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

ImogenMac

My post at 10.59 clearly states where the responsibility for building maintenance and surveying lies and the following post some of the jobs a Caretaker may do, subject to individual contracts.

I don't understand the relevance of this post. Caretakers are not building surveyors. Surveying is not a routine maintenance task. Many of these panels have been covered by suspended ceilings etc over the years and are not visible to the naked eye.

As I posted previously, our local school no longer has a caretaker. As well as that piece of false economy, the house he used to occupy is now empty and going to rack and ruin.

ImogenMac

Regulations and guidelines for safety of premises have changed enormously in the last few years and quite rightly so.
Anyone who has worked in a school recently will be aware of strict security, identification and DBS procedures.
CCTV throughout all entrances and exits frequently checked is not uncommon.
Caretakers are now Premises managers and go on designated courses to update them. It was certainly almost a part- time job in the past but now they are regarded as a vital part of the school team

They may well be in large schools but many smaller schools simply couldn't afford to pay them and they were got rid of years ago. So not all schools have them.

My post at 10.59 clearly states where the responsibility for building maintenance and surveying lies and the following post some of the jobs a Caretaker may do, subject to individual contracts.

The whole thing is a metaphor for this government.

Callistemon21

The schools should never have been built with substandard materials in the first place!

But they weren't 'substandard' at the time they were used. They became substandard at the end of their projected 'lives'.

One of the problems is short termism; Ministers aren't in post for very long and are determined to make their mark in the short time they may have. A rolling programme of replacement of time expired buildings is not something high on their agenda, it isn't newsworthy enough. Even if one were to be initiated it can be cancelled by an incoming minister, as Gove demonstrated.

Another, of course, is economic ideology. A government that believes in markets and minimal state intervention isn't one that is prepared to make long term investments in the state sector.

The schools should never have been built with substandard materials in the first place!

ImogenMac

Regulations and guidelines for safety of premises have changed enormously in the last few years and quite rightly so.
Anyone who has worked in a school recently will be aware of strict security, identification and DBS procedures.
CCTV throughout all entrances and exits frequently checked is not uncommon.
Caretakers are now Premises managers and go on designated courses to update them. It was certainly almost a part- time job in the past but now they are regarded as a vital part of the school team

But caretakers aren't building surveyors.

Just a little reminder for those who just cannot understand how this happened;

www.theguardian.com/education/2010/oct/22/school-building-projects-michael-gove-cuts

Almost as soon as they took power in 2010, Gove, as Education Secretary cancelled the bulk of the schools building and refurbishment programme started by Gordon Brown.

This, good people, is down to this administration, and nobody else.

On another point; all those Tory favourites/donors who are running Academy Trusts and making huge profits, will they have to pay for the refurbishment themselves?

There is not one thing improved by 13 years of Tory government, everything, but everything has got worse from NHS, Life expectancy, housing, schools, water, roads.........

This visionary zero-carbon new school had to be demolished after just six years.

At least the Head Teacher could find something positive to say:
Head teacher Jill Mahon said 90% of the material would be recycled locally.
How can you be sad when it is being reused," she said
We are seeing a whole process which couldn't be much richer for the children.

BBC November 2016

HousePlantQueen

Germanshepherdsmum

Better now than wait for an accident to happen.

better surely, to have inspected/sorted out any problems before term started?

Indeed for goodness sakes.

An article in the Guardian today pointed out that the construction industry was not closed during covid but schools were. I suppose no one put two and two together and thought this might be a good opportunity to cast an eye over the schools to see if any maintenance was needed.

Germanshepherdsmum

Better now than wait for an accident to happen.

better surely, to have inspected/sorted out any problems before term started?

Regulations and guidelines for safety of premises have changed enormously in the last few years and quite rightly so.
Anyone who has worked in a school recently will be aware of strict security, identification and DBS procedures.
CCTV throughout all entrances and exits frequently checked is not uncommon.
Caretakers are now Premises managers and go on designated courses to update them. It was certainly almost a part- time job in the past but now they are regarded as a vital part of the school team

eazybee

Of course it makes sense to buy the best, but there is never sufficient money for the amount of building needed for an expanding population, and accommodation is needed immediately. I spent at least a quarter of my teaching career in mobile classrooms, and actually they were preferable to the old Victorian school and the new open-plan one that replaced it. All these new estates being built without regard for schools and hospitals; £6 million a day would go some way to building facilities for the existing population.

Most secondary schools had a ROSLA block built in the early 70s to accommodate the increase in the school leaving age in 1973-4.
In the 1990s, I taught in a classroom in one. There was supposed to be wall insulation (nearly 30cms if the distance between the outer wall and the support was an indicator). Consequently there was a plastic panel between pupils and a 4m drop. They'd run out of money. It was supposed to have a pitched roof. It didn't, it had a leaky flat one.

Only a few years ago the caretaker at the secondary school here lived on site, but no longer.

Cleaning staff is often outsourced these days (goodness knows why) especially in academies.

ImogenMac

All state schools have caretakers, often onsite or very near. Their responsibility will be individual in their contract- most will be responsible for employing and managing cleaners, opening and closing school gates and perimeter security, liasing with groups who rent the premises, setting alarms, break- ins and much more. The issue of keeping schools secure throughout the day , monitoring visitors access ( with the school office) is a top priority.

No they don't. The last school I worked in had two cleaners, one of them was the Senior Cleaner, responsible for organising and supervising the other one. All the other jobs were done by the Head or senior teaching staff or the school secretary. The jobs of moving stuff and putting stuff away was done by us teachers. Any caretakers I remember didn't work during the school day but did split shifts say 7-10am then 2-6pm. And I never knew one who organised the letting out of the school premises
Teachers do many of the tasks you have given to caretakers.

All state schools have caretakers, often onsite or very near. Their responsibility will be individual in their contract- most will be responsible for employing and managing cleaners, opening and closing school gates and perimeter security, liasing with groups who rent the premises, setting alarms, break- ins and much more. The issue of keeping schools secure throughout the day , monitoring visitors access ( with the school office) is a top priority.

The Local Authorities or Metropolitan Boroughs are responsible for building maintenance in state schools and have rolling programmes to ensure regular checks are carried out as part of their statutory duties.
Quite clearly, as with nearly all aspects of local government, they have been starved of funds over decades, just like the NHS by governments intent on austerity. Many have lobbied the government continuously and got no- where.

Oh yes, the mobiles!
No sooner was the new school near here completed than they doubled the number of pupils and put mobiles in the grounds.

It is so short-sighted.
Of course we can afford it, we are not a third-world country and our children deserve better.

Of course it makes sense to buy the best, but there is never sufficient money for the amount of building needed for an expanding population, and accommodation is needed immediately. I spent at least a quarter of my teaching career in mobile classrooms, and actually they were preferable to the old Victorian school and the new open-plan one that replaced it. All these new estates being built without regard for schools and hospitals; £6 million a day would go some way to building facilities for the existing population.

I don’t understand why this clearly unsuitable material was ever allowed to be used when it’s life was only about thirty years. Oh yes, of course, it’s cheap!

Yes. It seems to be LA and Government policy to always accept the cheapest quote.

Buy cheap, buy twice. False economy.

I thought I’d seen that this problem has been known about since the middle nineties. Successive governments have done nothing. Apparently in 2018 it became more urgent but still nothing was done. While the country was tying itself in knots over Brexit, our schools and other public buildings were about to crumble in front of our eyes. It’s really disgraceful.
I don’t understand why this clearly unsuitable material was ever allowed to be used when it’s life was only about thirty years. Oh yes, of course, it’s cheap!

Have the days of caretakers and premises managers disappeared from state schools? Headteachers and academic staff shouldn't have to report and sort building issues, they aren't experts, and it is a waste of their valuable teaching time. If schools can't afford to have non academic onsite staff to carry out checks, then regular specialist teams should be sent in.