More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

Growstuff. My apologies if my comment came across that way. I didn’t intend to cause offence.

Apparently, the thinking in the 1990s was that even time-expired RAAC was still safe. It wasn't until 2018 that a school ceiling collapsed and some inspections were done that it was realised how serious the situation was.

www.theguardian.com/education/2023/sep/01/how-long-has-raac-in-schools-been-a-concern-and-what-happens-now

To confirm its presence, extensive works are required, involving the removal of false ceilings and asbestos to get to the material, requiring specialist asbestos contractors and scaffolding.

To confirm its presence, extensive works are required, involving the removal of false ceilings and asbestos to get to the material, requiring specialist asbestos contractors and scaffolding.

To confirm its presence, extensive works are required, involving the removal of false ceilings and asbestos to get to the material, requiring specialist asbestos contractors and scaffolding.

To confirm RAAC's presence requires specialist, extensive work, including the removal of false ceilings and asbestos. Specialist asbestos contractors and scaffolding are needed.

That's just to confirm it, even without its replacement.

EEJit

Hetty58

Too little, far too late - just as expected from this government, so no surprise to me either.

It's not only this government. Most of the schools were built in the 60s under Labour. They knew it was only supposed to last 30 years, Labour again in the 90s.

And before I'm accused of being a Conservative, I detest both parties.

Labour had a multi-billion rebuilding plan aimed primarily at these schools.

Gove cancelled it completel6.

I remember my 5 year old daughter telling a nurse in the hospital telling her she should stop working in the falling down hospital and DD was definitely not going to be a nurse! That hospital has since been rebuilt over 40 years ago! So this is a new problem?

EEJit

Hetty58

Too little, far too late - just as expected from this government, so no surprise to me either.

It's not only this government. Most of the schools were built in the 60s under Labour. They knew it was only supposed to last 30 years, Labour again in the 90s.

And before I'm accused of being a Conservative, I detest both parties.

by the time the 30 years was up, there was a tory government bent on reducing state spending.
It has been pointed out the the subsequent late 90s, Labour governments (Blair/Brown) planned to replace the schools but the programme was halted by Gove.

EEJit

Hetty58

Too little, far too late - just as expected from this government, so no surprise to me either.

It's not only this government. Most of the schools were built in the 60s under Labour. They knew it was only supposed to last 30 years, Labour again in the 90s.

And before I'm accused of being a Conservative, I detest both parties.

It was only in 2018 that it was realised that apparently flaw free RAAC could collapse, when it happened in a school. Labour had plans to replace or restore all schools with known RAAC issues in 2010, but that was scrapped by the Tory government. I think all governments did have a responsibility to ensure a register of building materials used through the years was developed and retained, but the current state caused by lack of investment in the state of schools is squarely down to the successive Tory governments of the last 13 years.

Hetty58

Too little, far too late - just as expected from this government, so no surprise to me either.

It's not only this government. Most of the schools were built in the 60s under Labour. They knew it was only supposed to last 30 years, Labour again in the 90s.

And before I'm accused of being a Conservative, I detest both parties.

mazzie66

Growsruff. My post was merely to point out to Glorianny that her statement that no primary school could afford a full time Site Manager was incorrect. Afford it or not, primary schools in my area have them.
Glorianny I live in the Black Country, an area with more than it’s fair share of deprivation and yet some of our primary schools, actually most, have minibuses. I see the one from my local primary school a couple of streets away up and down frequently. You speak about the situation in your area. I’ll speak about mine.

Why have a go at me? I'm not disputing what you wrote!

Growsruff. My post was merely to point out to Glorianny that her statement that no primary school could afford a full time Site Manager was incorrect. Afford it or not, primary schools in my area have them.
Glorianny I live in the Black Country, an area with more than it’s fair share of deprivation and yet some of our primary schools, actually most, have minibuses. I see the one from my local primary school a couple of streets away up and down frequently. You speak about the situation in your area. I’ll speak about mine.

As I explained earlier in this thread, I had a huge crack in my classroom wall - from one end of the wall to the other. It was about a centimetre wide and I could see through it to the next classroom. The site manager filled it with Polyfilla.

Even if it had been known how serious it was, the school budget just wouldn't have stretched to a proper rebuild of that wall.

Are you serious about finding rich businessmen (and women)?

We're talking about a lot more than getting in a few workmen for a couple of days.

To be fair grandtante, the school did have emergency exits marked and we had practice emergency drills, but there was still nothing to stop ceilings falling on people's heads.

Fleurpepper

I wonder if any Private schools are concerned?

Quite probably!

I don't understand you mean grandtante. I think people are criticising the actual delay of the directive.

Joseann

growstuff

That's why the DfE has now recruited a flying squad of structural engineers. There isn't currently a record of all the schools affected.

That's what I meant. Why no register?

No idea! Take a time machine back to 1964 and ask the officials who were then in post.

I wonder if any Private schools are concerned?

Joseann

Without spelling it out, growstuff certain schools can do something about it once they get a whiff of it, at the drop of a hat. They can pay for a private structural engineer and can accelerate the work. AND do the job in the school holidays. But that's another sector.

I wish all other schools could too. I am also angry that nothing was done in the past 3 months.

No Joseann. Why should they even have thought that was the cause? I taught in one of these schools. Even when I was there (in the late 1990s), there were cracks in the walls and ceilings. The site manager used to fill them, but nobody realised the whole structure was at risk of crumbling.

22 classrooms are affected (my former classroom is one of them). Maizie's link describes work on a small primary school to replace RAAC, which took 18 months. This is a much bigger job - and there is almost certainly asbestos involved. The cost would be at least £5 million and the school just doesn't have that kind of money.

The school applied to the DfE for funding, but was refused. It was scheduled for a rebuild in 2014, but that was cancelled. There is no way that remedial work could be done over the school holidays, although informing the school at the beginning of the holidays would at least have allowed some kind of planning. The school will now be closed for at least a week.

It is ridiculous to criticise the timing of the announcement because it comes at the start of the school year.

All public buildings should be safe to work in and have evacuation plans in place and working, clearly marked, emergency exits. Any that don't, should immediately be closed.

It is hardly fair to blame the present government exclusively either.

They, previous governments, municipal authorities, school boards, and teachers have seemingly know or suspected for years that their buildings and evacuation plans were not up to standard - so a lot of different people are sharing the guilt here, or should be.

You might as well blame individual heads of schools for not peremtorily closing down their schools on safety grounds years ago, or getting workmen in to repair things, as blame any government.

Yes, finding suitable alterative accomodation will be hard and expensive - but surely some rich business men and women could be asked to help if schools have to foot the bills themselves.

It is in everyone's interest that children are well-taught in safe surroundings.

growstuff

That's why the DfE has now recruited a flying squad of structural engineers. There isn't currently a record of all the schools affected.

That's what I meant. Why no register?

We should have been warned of this failure on the part of the government when it became clear that they had been warned about planning for an epidemic and ignored it.

I reckon that this will be the case in so much structural planning and failure.

Like the schools, like the air traffic control, like Bibby Stockholm to name recent disasters, and Grenfell which stands as a doom laden warning of the planning laws- all abysmal failures by a small state small minded government.

Without spelling it out, growstuff certain schools can do something about it once they get a whiff of it, at the drop of a hat. They can pay for a private structural engineer and can accelerate the work. AND do the job in the school holidays. But that's another sector.

I wish all other schools could too. I am also angry that nothing was done in the past 3 months.

mazzie66

Glorianny, it’s you who is completely wrong here. My son is full time Site Manager at a small primary school, the smallest in the borough in terms of pupil numbers. He carries out all the tasks ImogenMac outlined earlier plus many others such as driving the minibus and being allocated specific children to be responsible for when the school is out and about on excursions or attending events. He is a valued and trusted member of the school team. I checked with him yesterday evening. He tells me that all primary schools in the borough have a full time Site Manager. He has met a number of them when attending the same training course.

Maybe you live in one of the areas that received better funding than others. Or are you suggesting these head teachers are lying?
www.headteacher-update.com/content/news/we-can-t-afford-a-caretaker-or-a-senco-survey-lays-bare-funding-challenges
inews.co.uk/news/education/school-cuts-headteacher-is-school-caretaker-and-it-technician-147391
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/head-teacher-also-caretaker-dinner-16174048

or that academies don't make cuts
www.unison.org.uk/news/press-release/2017/05/uks-largest-academy-trusts-caretaker-cuts-pose-serious-risk-to-pupils-say-unions/

A minibus!!!! My goodness who can afford one of those!

That's why the DfE has now recruited a flying squad of structural engineers. There isn't currently a record of all the schools affected.

Joseann

No one needs to be qualified in anything. If a structural job was done and guaranteed for 30 years, then it should be registered on file with a reminder date to re do it when the time has elapsed. This is where schools benefit from a business manager, accountant, bursar or whatever. But of course it then relies ongetting the job done straightaway, not hanging about.

But it's not just maintenance which needed doing - it's replacement. No site manager, business manager or bursar could do anything about that.

Most Essex schools are now academies and their trusts own and are responsible for the buildings. Apparently, Essex County Council didn't pass on the construction details when they handed the schools over and the trusts were unaware of the problems. The RAAC panels are hidden behind cladding and only a structural engineer would be able to identify them and the state they're in.

Same here!

This has all be known about for so long. Apparently, four schools had to be closed at the end of last term because there were "incidents". These schools are well past their expiry dates and there should have rolling plan to replace them.

These children have already missed months of school.