We’re rejoining the Horizon programme….

It was the U.K. cutting off its nose to spite its face in the whole Brexit farce. That includes leaving the Horizon programme. Maybe most voters won’t care, but the scientific advances and research will affect everyone - for example, the joint satellite technology which tracks the weather, storms, floods, climate change etc which is becoming increasingly important. I’m guessing most voters would agree that collaboration in research is more important than an insular little England mentality

Fleurpepper

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Taking your analogy further, Fleurpepper: if you give up your membership, the vast majority of golf clubs will continue to let you play if you pay the appropriate 'visitor's green fee'. In this case, Ukraine, NZ, Armenia and Israel are non-member 'visitors' and pay accordingly - but the petty old EU threw a tantrum and would not (until now) allow the UK the same courtesy. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Urmstongran

As far as I know a delivery driver on a zero hours contract doesn’t need a degree. Or Erasmus Whitewave. It’s horses for courses.

Oh, a bit judgemental...I've known people, well educated and well read, that, for whatever reason, have taken low paid jobs, as a temporary solution.

No, they don't need a degree - but they might still be well educated, and have common sense.

Having a degree guarantees very little. 🙄

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Mollygo

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

Erasmus didn’t benefit all, whether you speak the language or not. DD who speaks fluent French, was unable to get Erasmus funding. Eventually, her year at a French University was funded by us. It was a struggle for us but it did benefit her hugely.

I do wonder why that was? EU Universities were desperate to get UK students to take part, as there was always a huge inbalance between supply and demand. EU students were keen to learn English and were already at a sufficiently high level to take full part in studies in all subjects, not 'just' languages.

MaizieD

I'm not altogether sure where Erasmus comes in as it is Horizon that we are rejoining.

I find some posters' efforts to typecast the 'working class' as insular and unaspirational very depressing. But I suppose that was the Brexit mentality. 'If we don't want it why should anyone else have it?'

Hear hear. Working class, middle class and upper class labels are very outdated concepts and I thought people had stopped labeling the class of themselves and others around about the time John Cleese, Ronnie Corbett et al mocked it in their excellent sketch.

From the Spectator:
Why Britain was excluded from Horizon
By Gus Carter

"What do Ukraine, Armenia, Israel and New Zealand have in common? None is an EU country and yet all of them are members of the EU’s Horizon programme, an £81 billion science funding scheme that, it was announced today, the UK will rejoin.
Britain had been one of the largest beneficiaries of the scheme before it left the EU. Throughout the Brexit process, the UK had expressed an interest in continuing as an associate member of Horizon, which gives scientists access to grants provided their country is signed up and pays in. It’s a status enjoyed by plenty of non-EU countries, and yet we ended up outside the scheme.
Even after Brexit, the UK continued to negotiate for access, but has only now secured the funding. Part of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement signed between the UK and EU specifically bans either party using EU programmes as leverage in wider negotiations. And yet the EU withheld Horizon membership because of ‘questions tied to the protocol on Northern Ireland’. In other words, the EU was withholding science funding, breaching the agreement it had signed and harming Europe-wide research in the process.
The wrangle over Horizon once again reveals the ways in which the EU was not a neutral actor in Brexit negotiations. Perhaps today’s deal is an indication that such pettiness has come to an end."

Personally, I'm not holding my breath about the EU giving up on pettiness...

Jane43

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

A lot of stereotyping going on there and rather insulting to those of us who consider themselves working class.

And where exactly do you draw the line between van drivers, plumbers and painters and the "middle class"? The man who decorated my house was more middle class in education and previous employment than I am, so is the van driver who brings my Amazon parcels, and I have met any number of people who if asked would label themselves "middle class" and have all of what presumably count as the trappings but didn't go to university or get any other qualifications.

The snobs here are not those who want our connections to Horizon, Erasmus etc to continue, but those who think that "ordinary people" don't need access to these organisations. i remember someone years ago (a very nice person in all other respects) who thought that pupils at a local authority school didn't need a planned outing to an art exhibition "because they will just be working in factories"

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

A lot of stereotyping going on there and rather insulting to those of us who consider themselves working class.

Along with the problem of agreeing things on NI there were some things that were up in the air but I think it was always hoped that Horizon would be continued, there was really no reason why we shouldn’t continue to be part of it, as is now proved to be the case.
I voted to remain for a few reasons probably like yourself.
Becoming closer to European matters will hopefully continue, there was too much petulance shown from both sides during Brexit.

Whitewavemark2

MayBee70

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I thought losing the Medicines Agency was an absolute disaster.

It was the first thing we were warned about during the referendum campaign and it was members of a local Conservative group that warned us about it…they were campaigning for remain. That’s when I realised that something very disturbing was happening. But, along with Ireland it wasn’t something that seemed to be discussed in debates or put on the front pages of the tabloids. And yet the work that these agencies do affect all of us in ways most of us don’t notice. I’d recommend the The Rest is Politics Leading interview with the Nobel prize winning scientist Paul Nurse* if anyone wants to learn more about Horizon
*he was, I assume, one if the experts we were told to ignore

Whitewavemark2

MayBee70

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I thought losing the Medicines Agency was an absolute disaster.

Maybee70 I’ve read that it was never intended that we would be frozen out of the Horizon programme, but it happened as a result of a tit for tat action from the EU over the UK’s approach on the NI agreement.Now that it’s sorted out, renegotiated, we are back in Horizon.

OH cane from a northern family too poor to have a council house until he was 15. They lived in a tiny terrace with an outside loo and no kitchen. His parents were keen for him to do well academically. He passed his 11+, went to Grammar school and then Oxford where he read Engineering Science. Of course he had a full grant back then so didn’t end up with a huge debt. I am reiterating that working class parents often want their children to do well.

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

How often do we hear or see people say that they were the first of their family to go to university? Everyday on GN there are people singing the praises of the children or grandchildren who are training to be or are qualified in a wide range of subjects. The middle classes want their children to acheive more than they dd. The working classes are no different.

A relative is involved in clinical trials at Oxford University. They are absolutely delighted with the news re Horizon. Many European research staff have left and recruiting expert scientists has proved very difficult since Brexit.

MayBee70

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I thought losing the Medicines Agency was an absolute disaster.

I see Donelan is waxing lyrical about the massive advantages that Horizon is going to bring to U.K. scientists 😄😄 honestly talk about reinventing the wheel.

I am unclear who she thinks is listening to her as we all knew that leaving such a prestigious and productive partnership was a disaster, but they didn’t listen did they? I wonder how much tax payers money they wasted through the whole debacle?

But it was never made clear at the time of the referendum just how disastrous voting leave would be if it resulted in us being excluded from things like Horizon. The first thing that happened was the medicines agency leaving this country; that’s gone fir good now. It still isn’t going to be as easy for EU scientists to work here but at least is a step in the right direction.

So The Pioneer Programme as plan B clearly never got off the ground nor was good enough, just like everything to do with Brexit.

I am very clear that closer working is going to happen - it is inevitable.

According to the BBC part of the Brexit deal was that we would have associate membership when we formally left Europe in 2020. We were not included at that point, however, because of disaagreement over the Northern Ireland Protocol. Now the latter has been resolved there is no reason why we shouldn’t rejoin Horizon, subject to ratification by EU member states, as it was never the intention to leave.

I don’t think remainers should get excited, therefore that it means a return to the EU. It is however brilliant news for the scientific community and ultimately for all of us as research projects and knowledge are shared. It can only be advantageous for us all. A cording to The Sunday Times it doesn’t look as if we will be paying in more than we take out in funded research projects which we can start applying for.

MaizieD

It's like Chinese Whispers, isn't it.

I mentioned Erasmus as several previous posters, including you, had mentioned it

I only mentioned it in in order to question why it was being discussed when the thread was about rejoining Horizon. Which, incidentally, has been supposedly under discussion at UK/EU level for some time.

As far as I am aware there have been no moves at all towards rejoining Erasmus and the UK has set up its own, inferior, scheme.

Most people were saying that Erasmus was a good thing too. Not ‘Chinese
Whispers’ - just widening the discussion a bit. Why is it bothering you so much?

Urmstongran

This will doubtless delight the middle classes.
The working class not so much. Many don’t even register what Erasmus is - if you drive a van, are a plumber or painter and decorator it won’t even cross your mind.

Erasmus didn’t benefit all, whether you speak the language or not. DD who speaks fluent French, was unable to get Erasmus funding. Eventually, her year at a French University was funded by us. It was a struggle for us but it did benefit her hugely.

👀

Rishi Sunak
@RishiSunak
·
16m
I have always championed our world-leading scientists and innovators.

We’re joining Horizon on improved financial terms, increasing the benefits to UK scientists with better value for money for the British taxpayer.

All UK scientists can start applying today.

Well said, Elegran.
It's very positive that we will rejoin Horizon. It was stupid to vote to abandon it. Will we now rejoin as an associate though? Urmstongran informs us that red wall voters are not interested in the enormous benefits we as a country had as EU member because these benefits didn't directly affect them. What an insular, negative and damaging attitude. Thank goodness we are not all red wall voters then.

My apologies for 'muddying' the waters ny mentioning Erasmus when it is only Horizon that is returning. However as a final fling I would note that many students work as van drivers and in many other gig economy jobs to fund their way through their studies.

I recently had a taxi driver with a degree in Bio-informatics and read of a care worker with a degree in Language and Linguistics. As a PhD student DS was also a warehouse worker for Tesco.

But let us return to Horizon, which may well help fund reearch posts for those no longer able to get E***** funds