Voter ID led to racial and disability discrimination

ronib

MaizieD surely a side room is available for a female polling officer to check the id of a burka wearing female? Seems to me that you are not applying simple common sense to these examples.

If there's a side room it involves the poll clerk has to leave the main room. So they could also go outside with someone who doesn't want to remove their mask in an enclosed environment...

Perhaps extra training will improve poll clerks' ID handling skills...

Years ago I worked for a government agency where we frequently had to ask for ID even though we were well aware that anyone can get a false ID by following the clear and easy instructions given by Frederick Forsyth in his book The Day of the Jackal. The key to it all is the "original" birth certificate You simply get the birth cert of someone who died as a child. It is what spys do. We civil servants we used to try and tell line management this but it was like talking to a brick wall. It was then, and I believe it still is, the cheapest way to get a false ID.

Incidentally no one ever has their "original" birth cert. That always remains in the registry off where you were registered. Often when people refer to an original birth cert they mean the first copy their parents ever got or a copy from the central registry office. Anyone can get anyone else`s birth cert.

The Muslim Council of Britain has outlined the process for voting which gives the simple solution above.

MaizieD surely a side room is available for a female polling officer to check the id of a burka wearing female? Seems to me that you are not applying simple common sense to these examples.

So what would all you hardliners do with a Muslim woman wearing a burka who refused to remove it if there were men present?

And, disability is a protected characteristic. Which means that one has to make accommodation for it

Disability discrimination is when you are treated less well or put at a disadvantage for a reason that relates to your disability in one of the situations covered by the Equality Act.

The treatment could be a one-off action, the application of a rule or policy or the existence of physical or communication barriers which make accessing something difficult or impossible.

The discrimination does not have to be intentional to be unlawful.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/disability-discrimination.

I will point out once again, that making laws on the basis of belief rather than hard evidence is extremely unwise...

Sparklefizz

How would you prevent voter fraud which we know has happened in the past?

One way would be to do as other countries do.

You are eligible to vote if you have received a notification of the election and which polling station to go to by post more than three days prior to the ballot taking place AND if you provide proof of your identity by having your social security no. with you and checked against the address you are registered as living at.

Britain has always refused to have a citizens' registry in the way most countries in Europe do, where every citizen is responsible for registering his or her permanent address with the citizens' registry within a certain number of days after moving from one permanent address to another, and to register any inhabitants of the same flat or house who are legal minors.

Frankly, without this kind of registry I doubt that it is possible to avoid people voting who have no right to do so.

Zoe65

And as a report by the lefty guardian newspaper what do you expect!
Loads of voter fraud going on before this especially with the ethnic minorities and their postal votes even if not all was found out .

The report was by a Parliamentary All Party Group.

Plenty of other media reported on it. I just chose the Guardian because it doesn't have a paywall.

Try focussing on all the words in a post, not just one...

I worked as a poll clerk or presiding officer at elections for over 40 years, until a few years ago. It often struck me that a system entirely based on trust was open to fraud. I just had to ask each voter for their address and name, then mark the register and give them their voting paper. How did I know if they were really that person? They didn’t need to show their voting card. The only instances of recorded fraud are where either voting staff or tellers outside recognised the person as someone other than they purported to be - not very likely to happen. There could be widespread ‘personation’ that we just don’t know about. I often worked in polling districts with many foreign students (who are allowed to vote in some elections). They would often walk in and immediately proffer their ID. They were surprised when I said I didn’t need it. But how do you know I’m who I say I am, they said. Oh we take you at your word, I’d say - they just looked amazed.
I think showing ID is a good idea - fraud in everything else seems to be increasing, why not in voting. Most people over retirement age get a free bus pass (I certainly do and I think this is widespread across the UK) with their photo on which can be used as ID, so they don’t have to have a passport or driving licence. As for the immunosuppressed lady (as I am myself), of course she should have got herself a postal vote - what on earth was she doing going out to vote in a mask? Ridiculous! As for the argument that she should be entitled to do whatever she wants and we should accommodate that no matter what, I just despair! If we want to live in a civilised society, we must accept that there are rules we need to abide by and this one is a very easy one to comply with.

Zoe65

And as a report by the lefty guardian newspaper what do you expect!
Loads of voter fraud going on before this especially with the ethnic minorities and their postal votes even if not all was found out .

The "lefty" Guardian was writing about a report co-authored by the "non lefty" Robert Buckland MP, who was the Justice Secretary responsible for introducing the new rules.

If you click MaizieD's link, you will get the full effect.

Well then, let's look at what Rees Mogg actually said, at the National Conservatism conference in Westminster,

'Parties that try and gerrymander end up finding their clever scheme comes back to bite them, as I dare say we found by insisting on voter ID for elections'

And as a report by the lefty guardian newspaper what do you expect!
Loads of voter fraud going on before this especially with the ethnic minorities and their postal votes even if not all was found out .

but you cannot compare with europe, as they already have to have ID cards anyway.
we do not.

Well maddyone who knows?😂

What JRM said isn’t what Franbern said tho.
His opinion was that altering voting requirements would dampen down older votes, which he mistakenly thought would mean less Conservative votes.
I think he’s wrong on both counts, as older people are likely to have ID, and sure don’t all vote Tory either!
It was just his own personal opinion and not a Tory message.
If asking for ID is gerrymandering then most of Europe is guilty of it.Plainly it isn’t.

You can get free ID from your local council. It's been well advertised.

JRM drunk?
What a thought 😂😂😂

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-admits-tory-voter-id-law-was-gerrymandering_uk_64620db8e4b03e16f1a45050

Oreo

maddyone

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

Quite!

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You an clap as much as you like, Oreo, but it doesn't make it any less dangerous, and irresponsible for a government to legislate on the strength of beliefs rather than evidence.

Two, where on earth did you read that the Tories said that?😂
Unless it was the personal opinion of one possibly drunk MP.

It was said by ex minister, Jacob Rees Mogg at the 'New Conservatives' conference earlier this year. Discussed on this forum at the time.

He, in effect, said that their attempt to gerrymander the vote had failed because a lot of the people who didn't have ID were older voters (on whom the tory party depends for most of their vote)

He may have been drunk at the time, seems unlikely but you can never tell...

maddyone

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

Quite!

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

MaizieD

^You are right to say that Disenfranchisement is a very serious harm to the individual and to democracy. - however we are now seeing here on Gransnet a re-run of the arguments raised before it was brought in instead of a reevaluation of thoughts because of the outcome.^

I didn't post yesterday as I'm super busy this week and sensed it would just be a re-run!
It is!

Thanks for that NotSpaghetti

I thought it would probably be a re-run, too, but it was worth a try.

By re-run I presume you mean because most posters don’t share your own opinion.
Arguments raised before it was brought in and revaluation after needn’t change anyones mind, especially with the reasons given, voters who refuse to unmask and a whole lot of maybe’s and perhaps’s about possible failings by poll clerks.
Get the correct ID with clear photo and vote, or apply for a postal vote.

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

Quite!

Franbern

To me the really bad about our electoral system are
A) the first past the post system, which defeats any real democracy.
and (B) Not having compulsory voting,

Place on ballot paper for people to tiock NONE OF THE ABOVE. but everyone eligible should have to vote.

Our current system just continues minority governments with huge majorities in the HoCommons.

As for Voter ID. Even the Tories themselves admitted that it was to enable older voteres (moe of them likely to vote Tory (although I have no idea why)_,and make it difficult for younger and poorer voteres. Which was why the Bus Pass was permitted as ID fot oldies, buth the same card was NOT allowed for younger votrs.

Two things.
One, you really believe in forcing people to vote? I know some countries do but that’s a step too far for me.
Two, where on earth did you read that the Tories said that?😂
Unless it was the personal opinion of one possibly drunk MP.

You are right to say that Disenfranchisement is a very serious harm to the individual and to democracy. - however we are now seeing here on Gransnet a re-run of the arguments raised before it was brought in instead of a reevaluation of thoughts because of the outcome.

I didn't post yesterday as I'm super busy this week and sensed it would just be a re-run!
It is!

Thanks for that NotSpaghetti

I thought it would probably be a re-run, too, but it was worth a try.

GrannySomerset money laundering rules mean you can’t open a bank account, deal in shares or write a will without photo ID.
Dh works in finance and it can be very difficult for the elderly without a passport or driving licence.

Now you can’t vote in person without photo ID. However if you apply for a postal vote you don’t need to send a photo or have your id otherwise verified. That seems a bit of an anomaly. If we are going to continue with voter id the system needs to be improved. It would be interesting to look at figures of double voting where students and second home owners for example obtained 2 votes. Really it’s about balance and making the system as fair as possible.

vegansrock

But Monica your claim that there is little election fraud is based on “no evidence” either as it’s almost impossible to discover. Anecdotally, I know of people who have voted for someone else when that person has asked them to and they had no problem even though that is illegal. I know that isn’t evidence either, but since they weren’t challenged or asked for ID there were no repercussions. I wonder if there are any other comparable countries where you don’t need ID to vote.

Sorry, vegansrock, but a government should not be legislating on the strength of 'it might be happening'. That would be completely mad and potentially very dangerous indeed.

The only evidence we have to date is that voter fraud, specifically 'personation' is negligible to the point of practically non existence. It was not a sound basis for introducing voter ID.