Voter ID led to racial and disability discrimination

To me the really bad about our electoral system are
A) the first past the post system, which defeats any real democracy.
and (B) Not having compulsory voting,

Place on ballot paper for people to tiock NONE OF THE ABOVE. but everyone eligible should have to vote.

Our current system just continues minority governments with huge majorities in the HoCommons.

As for Voter ID. Even the Tories themselves admitted that it was to enable older voteres (moe of them likely to vote Tory (although I have no idea why)_,and make it difficult for younger and poorer voteres. Which was why the Bus Pass was permitted as ID fot oldies, buth the same card was NOT allowed for younger votrs.

Mollygo

DiamondLily
You did need to allow a week or so, particularly if you were not doing it online.
You have to wait much longer for a passport, but those who want to do something that needs one make sure they do it.

Yes, I have to renew my passport 3 months before the old one expires.

Same with my Blue Badge, although that has got quicker now I can do it online.

I need both things, so I just apply in time. I don't see it as difficult.🙂

But Monica your claim that there is little election fraud is based on “no evidence” either as it’s almost impossible to discover. Anecdotally, I know of people who have voted for someone else when that person has asked them to and they had no problem even though that is illegal. I know that isn’t evidence either, but since they weren’t challenged or asked for ID there were no repercussions. I wonder if there are any other comparable countries where you don’t need ID to vote.

Mollygo it seems that polling clerks have difficulty matching up id to voters of a different ethnicity or so it is claimed. It is alleged that this is happening.

You may be interested Maizie that I read about this report yesterday and discussed it with my husband and agreewith you. We are both feel this is a "further erosion of rights" and that the outcome of the review was inevitable. Earlier evidence from elsewhere saw this happen. They also found racial and disability discrimination.

You are right to say that Disenfranchisement is a very serious harm to the individual and to democracy. - however we are now seeing here on Gransnet a re-run of the arguments raised before it was brought in instead of a reevaluation of thoughts because of the outcome.

I didn't post yesterday as I'm super busy this week and sensed it would just be a re-run!
It is!

Ronib, was that because they hadn’t bothered to get ID?

Mollygo go back to the original premise- at least 14000 voters were disqualified/disenfranchised etc.
My postal vote was once disallowed because my signature didn’t match up. How that happened I don’t know. Not on grounds of ethnicity. Stuff happens.

What rights have been taken away? Have people been told they can’t vote?

Witzend

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

I was just thinking the same. It’s often said that there’s very little evidence of benefit fraud - but that’s surely because, by definition, the only cases known of are those where it’s already been proved.

I dare say the same could be said for election fraud.

I’m another in favour of ID cards - IMO it’s crazy that we don’t already have them. The world has changed a lot since the days when (except for wartime) they were considered unnecessary and very un-British.

I am astounded and appalled.

So it's absolutely fine to take away people's rights and freedoms on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever? Because it 'might' be happening under the radar?

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

I was just thinking the same. It’s often said that there’s very little evidence of benefit fraud - but that’s surely because, by definition, the only cases known of are those where it’s already been proved.

I dare say the same could be said for election fraud.

I’m another in favour of ID cards - IMO it’s crazy that we don’t already have them. The world has changed a lot since the days when (except for wartime) they were considered unnecessary and very un-British.

DiamondLily
You did need to allow a week or so, particularly if you were not doing it online.
You have to wait much longer for a passport, but those who want to do something that needs one make sure they do it.

You've got to have ID rules. Wish we had more. Everyone should carry identification in these current times. If you were interested in voting you would comply. That's why I don't read the Guardian. How does anyone know whose behind a mask? Ridiculous.

Voter ID seems suspicious to me. The answer is universal ID cards. I know there is a feeling among many that the UK is 'different'. So let's just stay behind the times then and see how that helps us.

GrannyRose15

maddyone

Well I suppose the answer to that is to make it obligatory to vote. However I don’t agree with that, but I guess it would solve the problem.
I’m really not going to worry myself about this none problem. People will vote if they want to and they won’t vote if they don’t want to. If they want to vote they’ll avail themselves of the facility provided by the council to get free voter ID if they need it (which would then be useful if needed for anything else such as registering a death.) Problem solved.

Availing yourself of this free service is not as easy as it sounds. You need to know where to go and what to ask for to start with. And you need to do it in plenty of time before an election. I did it and it was a farce. The ID that comes is a piece of A4 paper that you are supposed to keep safe for 10 years and is not valid for any other purpose than voting. I don’t even know if it is portable when you move out of your council area but suspect that it isn’t.

Our council advertised it everywhere. The form was available both online, or by phoning the freephone number.

You did need to allow a week or so, particularly if you were not doing it online.

I'm not sure whether it's portable though.🙂

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

maddyone

Well I suppose the answer to that is to make it obligatory to vote. However I don’t agree with that, but I guess it would solve the problem.
I’m really not going to worry myself about this none problem. People will vote if they want to and they won’t vote if they don’t want to. If they want to vote they’ll avail themselves of the facility provided by the council to get free voter ID if they need it (which would then be useful if needed for anything else such as registering a death.) Problem solved.

Availing yourself of this free service is not as easy as it sounds. You need to know where to go and what to ask for to start with. And you need to do it in plenty of time before an election. I did it and it was a farce. The ID that comes is a piece of A4 paper that you are supposed to keep safe for 10 years and is not valid for any other purpose than voting. I don’t even know if it is portable when you move out of your council area but suspect that it isn’t.

Sparklefizz

How would you prevent voter fraud which we know has happened in the past?

There is very little voter fraud at polling stations. If you have heard of an incidence of voter fraud it is much more likely to be related to postal voting.

Well I suppose the answer to that is to make it obligatory to vote. However I don’t agree with that, but I guess it would solve the problem.
I’m really not going to worry myself about this none problem. People will vote if they want to and they won’t vote if they don’t want to. If they want to vote they’ll avail themselves of the facility provided by the council to get free voter ID if they need it (which would then be useful if needed for anything else such as registering a death.) Problem solved.

Mollygo

maddyone
There will always be people who can’t be bothered to vote. Fair enough then, if it’s not important to them, so be it. Voter ID won’t change their behaviour!

No but it has, and will, give them an excuse for not voting.

It is just an excuse not a reason they obviously can't be that fussed about voting in the first place.

maddyone
There will always be people who can’t be bothered to vote. Fair enough then, if it’s not important to them, so be it. Voter ID won’t change their behaviour!

No but it has, and will, give them an excuse for not voting.

Many people couldn’t be bothered to get off their bottoms and vote in the most important election in the last century, the Brexit election. They didn’t need ID to vote, the law hadn’t changed then. They simply couldn’t be bothered! There will always be people who can’t be bothered to vote. Fair enough then, if it’s not important to them, so be it. Voter ID won’t change their behaviour!

I needed ID in order to register my mother’s death last year. I used my passport.
My mother needed ID to register my father’s death, seven years ago. She used her Blue Badge (to show disability when we parked.)
How does anyone ever register a death without ID?
It’s all a big fuss over nothing. Nobody is disenfranchised because they can get free photo ID from their local council.
There are far more important things to worry about.

Elegran

MaizieD

and why it is necessary.

Why is it necessary, Elegran?

(Please don't tell me it's because it's the law. I know that.)

No apology from me for asking a question, either... I think they're still allowed on this forum.

In a democracy where one person has one vote, some people cheat and have as many votes as they can fraudulently steal. that is why it is necessary to check off that each voter is actually the person that they say they are.

Do you really believe that it doesn't matter if the electoral results are perverted by their actions? Would you care if it happened at Parliamentary level, if laws were passed by MPs stealing the votes of absent colleagues because they wanted to see a particular bit of legislation to go through (perhaps because they had been promised a "little gift" if they helped it on its way)

We thought we could trust our elected representatives to do what was right for the country, but our eyes have been opened. We would like to think that when the country goes to the polls to record their votes, we get a true picture of what each person wants. If corruption and self-seeking are there at the highest level, they can creep in at any level.

Very eloquent, Elegran.

Now can you explain why, out of the millions of votes cast at any UK election there is an average of 2 prosecutions (or police cautions) for voter fraud per year?

Do you use a sledgehammer to crack a peanut?

14,000 voters were known to be disenfranchised by this law in May's local elections. Despite all the Gnet authoritarians saying that people ought to have known, people didn't and they list their right to vote in that election.

I don't give a monkeys what other countries do. The UK doesn't have a history of serious voter fraud. This is an unnecessary law.

I think democracy is improved if voters prove who they are, and that they have the right to vote.🙂

MaizieD

^and why it is necessary.^

Why is it necessary, Elegran?

(Please don't tell me it's because it's the law. I know that.)

No apology from me for asking a question, either... I think they're still allowed on this forum.

In a democracy where one person has one vote, some people cheat and have as many votes as they can fraudulently steal. that is why it is necessary to check off that each voter is actually the person that they say they are.

Do you really believe that it doesn't matter if the electoral results are perverted by their actions? Would you care if it happened at Parliamentary level, if laws were passed by MPs stealing the votes of absent colleagues because they wanted to see a particular bit of legislation to go through (perhaps because they had been promised a "little gift" if they helped it on its way)

We thought we could trust our elected representatives to do what was right for the country, but our eyes have been opened. We would like to think that when the country goes to the polls to record their votes, we get a true picture of what each person wants. If corruption and self-seeking are there at the highest level, they can creep in at any level.