Just how stupid do the Tories think we are?

The whole HS2 is a mess Whitewavemark2 in my opinion.
I’d rather it hadn’t been thought up at all, but since it has I think it should carry on going ahead and all the legs of it completed.It was supposed to be part of the levelling up for the North, so it’s a slap in their face if it isn’t done.

Observer

It is thought that Sunak will announce the cancellation if the Manchester keg of the HS2 this week, as announcing this at party conference in Manchester would be like s………g on your hosts. It is bad enough to do it a week before you spend time there.

Sunak seems to be making all sorts of policy announcements lately that have much more to do with his personal opinion, than anything discussed and decided by the cabinet, who seem to as much in the dark as the rest of the Tory party.

When we had proper government running the country, it was the minister responsible who announced the policy decisions, which had usually been thrashed out in cabinet, or at least with a group of cabinet members. All the ministers seem to do now is to try to clear up the muddle and mess of the PM.

We disagree…….about the use of false apologies.

Hmm, I also had one, from Dinahmo.
So we’re in the same boat Iam.

Latest rumour is that a Sunak intends to abolish inheritance tax.

Only about 41000 people paid inheritance tax in 2022/23 approx about 4% of the total of people leaving an estate.

Sunak will announce this with a huge fanfare if the rumours are true, and many people who don’t think it through will be excited by the prospect, but in truth 96% of people will never pay a penny in inheritance tax.

Do the Tories think we are stupid? They have no reason to doubt this as thousands of UK citizens voted for Johnson in the full knowledge of his absence of integrity. So - they know for sure that there is stupidity a-plenty out there. They just need to find a way of tapping in to it .... maybe scrap some green policies and pretend to be on the side of the ordinary driver for instance.

A fundamental flaw of democracy is the need for politicians to promise to give people what they want and this encourages short term thinking - give them cake now and to hell with the future!

We disagree Bodach about the use of false apologies

Iam64

Freya5, no you aren’t ‘sorry’ for believing I’m wrong. I’ve no problem with disagreements but I do have a problem with false apologies.

Dear Iam64, that's a bit ungracious. No-one thinks that Freya 5 was really sorry. Her "Sorry but" was nothing more than a very commonly-used preamble to saying that she disagreed with you. It was meant to facilitate a polite discourse.
Would you rather she started off with something like "You're talking Bo***cks..."

nanna8

The thing is, if you think the opposition will be any better you are most likely in for a sad disillusionment. We think that every time the government changes side. Never happens. Just gets worse and worse.

But it didn't get worse when Blair became PM. Many things improved and much of the improvement has been eroded by the Tories.

maddyone

It’s not my fault DAR, it’s the fault of the politicians. Please refrain from being so condescending and rude about me.

Sorry but it is our fault, at least partly because we voted for this politicians. Unfortunately some people believed the lies or were blinded by Johnson's supposed charisma.

Freya5, no you aren’t ‘sorry’ for believing I’m wrong. I’ve no problem with disagreements but I do have a problem with false apologies.

GrannyRose15

Iam64

“Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot”

Well we’ll see won’t we. I hope you are right but very much fear you are not.

Sorry but you are very wrong on this.
He's already u turned on things, how can the public trust someone, who may get into power, who already shuffles to the tune of what people want to hear,rather than sticking to what he's said. As for Lammy, do you really want a biased , against the white majority, Foreign. Secretary.
No I don't like Sunak either. The party elite chose a globalist opportunist instead of a real Tory.

GrannyRose

* Stop taxes on eating meat.
* Stop taxes to discourage flying
* Stop us being forced to sort rubbish into seven bins.
* Stop compulsory car sharing.
* Stop expensive insulation upgrades

Only one of these, which he says he is cancelling, even exists or has been suggested. By stopping the last one, which will only be "expensive" relative to the neglect of the property so far, he will simply make the poorest poorer.

should be lack of experience.

One thing is for sure and that is we can’t have this incompetent, self serving lot in for any longer than we are forced to. My opinion in general is that we are governed in the main by people with little of the experience necessary for the job. Sunak jumped up the greasy pole in giant leaps. His inability to manage his party and his support of those he needs to keep on side is part of that experience. Where is the astuteness and indeed craftiness of mind that is needed as a leader? I can’t help thinking of Harold Wilson in this respect. Hoping that Starmer will show some strength as we are certainly in need of a change which will give us some hope and credibility.

The thing is, if you think the opposition will be any better you are most likely in for a sad disillusionment. We think that every time the government changes side. Never happens. Just gets worse and worse.

Iam64

Good point MaizieD. It’s like pretending The Archers really is filmed in a small village

Er, does one film for radio?

This view if our politics it being spoken aloud more and more Maisie. Because of our system, that traps us in two party government, most MPs end up as canon fodder. The are marched through the lobbies, sometimes (often?) against their conscience because of the win or loose nature of parliment. The brilliant speeches, often made by back benchers, seem to be a thing of the past.

I wonder how many people actually realise that we do note vote for a Party or a leader, but for a manifesto. That manifesto should be able to be passed, by our representatives, unheeded. Yet so wide are the parties that many members of them don't agree even though they are elected on that manifesto!

If you have time to listen to the ATRIP addition I flagged for Iam I would love to hear what you think too. Even if we don't agree on the whole, I always end up learning to look differently because of yours and others posts. That, I believe, is the true "good" that comes from debate.

GrannyRose15

Iam64

“Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot”

Well we’ll see won’t we. I hope you are right but very much fear you are not.

My goodness, repeat the past 13 years and where on earth will the uk be!

The tories are terrible as managing the economy,
Terrible at managing the NHS
Terrible at managing climate change
Terrible at managing public services

Very good at awarding their “friends”
Very good at breaking ministerial rule
Very good at sleaze
Very good at corruption

The country couldn’t possibly afford another Tory government .

We would sink without trace.

Iam64

“Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot”

Well we’ll see won’t we. I hope you are right but very much fear you are not.

Iam64

I wouldn’t identify as cynical. I don’t agree with the often used comment that all politicians lie, they’re all in it for themselves, none are to be trusted. Politicians, like other ambitious people come in all shapes and sizes.
Like the police, they reflect the society they serve. The country voted Johnson in with a huge majority, the tragedy is that as the non Tory voters predicted, it’s been disastrous for the country.
Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot

It is the behavior in the last 13 years of this government that makes me begin to think we may have to move to a written constitution. I no longer believe those who take the highest positions in government should be left to do it only on trust.

If Starmer really wants more devolved government, and Labour wins the next election, this could be the time to start doing just that.

The original spark for this bit of thinking on my part Iam came from listening to the latest "And The Rest Is Politics", which I think you would find particularly interesting. I listened to the two Andy's talking about what they do and believe as Combined Authority Mayors (more about place than politics). Andy Burnam then mentioned that a "basic law" is written into the German constitution that requires an equivalence of living standards between the 16 Landers of Germany. It set my mind whirring about whether, now we can see some politicians will simply not uphold the rules and laws of the unwritten constitution, it is the time to codify it?

I started a thread about the podcast here It includes a link.

Well it would appear that the voter is not as stupid as Sunak and his cohorts hoped we are.

Sunak’s ratings has plummeted to the lowest ever since his “green” speech.
And support for the Tory party has dropped once again.

The clearly saw through his foolish lies and disagree profoundly with delaying and measure to tackle the worst crises the world has faced.

For the uninitiated please can someone list these non existent policies.

Good point MaizieD. It’s like pretending The Archers really is filmed in a small village

Another of my book reviews - but it seems relevant to this thread. I wrote the review around the time Johnson became PM.

Why We Get The Wrong Politicians, by Isabel Hardman

This book seemed highly pertinent at the time of reading, and of writing this review – November last year.
Hardman is a Westminster lobby journalist and assistant editor of The Spectator, so has been able to observe the workings of the House of Commons at close quarters. She analyses the motivations of those who stand for Parliament, followed by their rapid disenchantment as they start to work out that they are virtually powerless. She is in the main sympathetic to MPs, recognising the home-wrecking nature of their chosen career path, and the huge sacrifices that have to be made in so many areas: health, family life, finances, moral standards, idealism. It is a sorry tale of sheer impotence in the face of an arcane system in Westminster.
She acknowledges the presence of corrupt self-serving individuals - but did they start out that way, or did the system at Westminster push them in that direction as being the only rational course of action to save their career?
She observes the novice MPs who arrive bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, fresh from their heady triumph, and full of political fervour to improve the nation, but find themselves sucked into jostling for a remote chance of making a difference; and faced with massive moral compromises. Such painful disillusionment presents a dilemma: give it all up and face the fact that all that hard work and massive expenditure were in vain, and try and pick up the pieces of your life without too much loss of face; or go with the flow and try to carve a niche for yourself by fair means or foul?
She asks: “Why would anyone with a vaguely decent perspective on life and a few hobbies want to go anywhere near Parliament?” And her answers are not unkind – she recognises the often laudable motives of many candidates, and laments the fate of so many as they cave in to the prevailing moral mire that confronts them at Westminster.
The pathway to Parliament demands money in quantities that many candidates underestimate, which is why “We end up with a political class that cannot instinctively see the impact of bad policies on the most vulnerable.” Not bad people then, she seems to say, just ignorant of real life.
She is full of praise for the dedication of many MPs to their constituency casework. How sickeningly ironic it is that so much of their time is spent sorting out the impact of their own flawed legislation on ordinary people.
This is a good book, with her assertions well researched and backed-up; and a real compassion for those decent people who find themselves locked into a system that leaves many frustrated and miserable, and easy prey for the booze and the marriage-destroying charms of fresh newly- graduated young assistants. It is also a very sad book – sad for the individuals involved and sad for all of us whose lives are dictated by legislation that is passed under such devious processes.
“What is far worse than the few fools and failures that every parliament seems to contain is the fact that the House of Commons is – both structurally and culturally – not working, and that will remain the case no matter how many snap elections we have over the next few years.”