20mph speed limit....for or against?

I'm in Wales. Nobody, not a single person I've met or talked to disagrees with such a limit at schools - on school days and during term time, hospitals, leisure centres, housing estates and the like. Putting this limit on arterial routes no matter what the time of day is plain madness. My car engine spins faster in 2nd or 3rd gear at 20 ( it often changss as an automatic ), so puts out more pollution and I'm in the area 50% longer. I anticipate increased wear and tear. Try it on a clear stretch of road when there's nothing else around and see how loñg you last ( as a taxi driver dropping off clients at 3am told me ). Recent studies showed that in the first week a busy road in Cardiff dropped from an average 22.8mph when 30 to 19.8 when 20. If it was 22.8 anyway what was the point of spending £32M implementing this. It's a busy out of town shopping area in the day but closed at night - although 20 remains. We're told well have a grace period when you will be "educated" but after that could find yourself with 3 points and a fine. Most responsible drivers will adjust according to the conditions - traffic, people, weather etc. Those who don't care won't take any notice anyway.

The housing estate that my son lives on (in England) has had a 20 mph limit for a few years now . To be honest I think it needs to be so low as there are cars parked both sides of bendy roads and it’s so hard to see what traffic is coming towards you , any faster and I’m sure that there would be many more accidents .

Also for all those people who say about public transport -what public transport? It takes me approx 20 minutes in an easy run to get to work by car for 8 am - to catch a bus I would have to leave a good 1.1/2 hours earlier, and still walk 15/30 minutes each end of the journey! Then the same at the end of the day. Would they do it - no way, so why should I?

Casdon, I can’t see why it’s not possible to drive safely at 20 either. Some roads near me (not in Wales) have been 20 mph for a while, and I seem to manage it.

I am against it in the majority of places - outside schools/old peoples homes etc is fine, but everywhere else is totally wrong. I travel 4.5 miles each way to work with 9 changes of speed in each direction, and I don't even live/work in the city. It has cost a fortune when it seems only a small minority were asked their opinions, is going to cause more accidents than it saves (on my first day out on the new limits a car overtook me then got got stuck behind other traffic so I was behind it for a good mile and half before I turned off - he/she gained absolutely nothing), cause more pollution because of having to change gear more often, and a lot more wear and tear on vehicles. The money would have been better spent on repairing pot holes/road surfaces and going direct to NHS instead of wasting it on new signs which are getting damaged/defaced already.

I agree about the speed signs, Callistemon, sounds a mess.

Lots of stats show roads are safer for pedestrians and cyclists with lower speed limits. How to make people driving a ton of metal abide by them is trickier. I’m tail-gated often and had drivers roaring past me on residential roads because I observe the limit. Usually see them at next set of traffic lights 😳

I'm against. Obviously you can always argue that going slower saves lives. By that token not taking the car at all would be safest. Yet another regulation to bedevil and impoverish struggling people (such as delivery drivers) and won't impact the rich so much

Callistemon21

As long as they get the speeds co-ordinated.
20mph sign with 30mph painted on the road right by it?

Booze-ups in breweries comes to mind.

I’d agree regarding the speed signs being clear, ambiguity is likely to cause confusion and potentially accidents. I think it probably varies as to how good they are by LA area, as they are responsible for erecting the signs?
It’s the comments about not being able to drive properly at 20mph that are worrying me.

As long as they get the speeds co-ordinated.
20mph sign with 30mph painted on the road right by it?

Booze-ups in breweries comes to mind.

I’ll be honest, I’m seriously worried about people’s driving abilities if they can’t control the speed at which they can smoothly and safely drive. I think this fuss will all die down, and in a year’s time it will just be the norm.

I didn’t enjoy driving before but it’s become a stressful experience now
That is Mr Drakeford's aim but he is not offering viable alternatives.

I’m in Wales.

*ChickenLicken^
So am I, so you may have noticed that there are 20mph signs at the sides of the roads as well as 30mph painted on the road, 30mph signs at the entrance to narrow country lanes with 40 mph painted on the road where no one with any sense would do more than 25 mph anyway!!

There is a 30mph road sign leaving one village on a main A road where 60mph is allowed 🤔

Together with the vicious, tyre and suspension damaging speed bumps, it's not easy to do more than 10mph in many areas.

At the moment it is confusing chaos.

I’m in Wales. It depends a great deal on the local conditions as to how the 20mph affects journeys. On school run in neighbouring town I was stuck in traffic going through three sets of traffic two pelican crossings. I fortunately found a parking space in a side street & walked the third of a mile to school. Took twice as long to walk back with 4yo GD & a horrible route due to crossing lots of streets, some very narrow pavements & with 2yo GD in buggy.
Buses are a joke - there is one an hour from town to our village & it’s a half mile walk uphill on a winding country lane to our house.
They’ve put National speed limit signs just under halfway up, with 20mph signs if you’re coming the other way.
No one would do even 20 all the way, up or down!
As others have said, this has been ill-thought-out & badly implemented.
It would have made far more sense to make the decisions locally based, to maximise effectiveness & compliance because they would be relevant.
It’s not simple maths to figure out how long it will take to drive a route, due to cars being parked both sides of the road allowing only enough room for one vehicle to get through.
Safety should be paramount - coupled with common sense would have helped no end.
I didn’t enjoy driving before but it’s become a stressful experience now.

Having just done another speed awareness course I appreciate that speed kills. However 20mph is practically impossible to achieve safely. What is more the motorist is fined and points added to one’s license. This should be reported to one’s insurer. Thus increased premiums. Which ever way you look at it the motorist loses out. Soon we will give up having a car and another industry suffers.

I think the problem is not the statutory speed limit but the way people drive.

Certainly dangerous driving causes accidents. However, not all collisions between cars and pedestrians are caused by dangerous driving. Sometimes children run out into the road, for example.

In a 20 mph zone there will be fewer collisions between pedestrians and cars travelling at over 20 mph than in a 30 mph zone, because at least some drivers will observe the speed limit. So there will be fewer deaths caused by non-dangerous driving.

Another benefit of 20 mph zones is that pedestrians and cyclists feel safer, so the proportion of people walking and cycling goes up, benefiting health through exercise and also reducing air pollution.

*emissions and fuel use at lower speed are determined…, I should say.

I decided to Google whether driving 20 miles an hour as opposed to 30 miles an hour causes more emissions. I found that TFL say:

‘In 20mph zones vehicles move more smoothly with fewer accelerations and decelerations. This driving style produces fewer particulate emissions.’
content.tfl.gov.uk/speed-emissions-and-health.pdf

A Guardian article quotes some 1980s research from Germany:

‘… the greater the speed of vehicles in built-up areas, the higher is the incidence of acceleration, deceleration, and braking, all of which increase air pollution... Table E-1 shows the relative change in emissions and fuel use when the speed limit is cut from 50kmh (31mph) to 30kmh (19mph) for two different driving styles. Even aggressive driving under the slower speed limit produces lower emissions (but higher fuel use) than under the higher speed limit, although calm driving produces greater reductions for most emissions and net fuel savings’.

An American study in 2009 found that:

‘While traffic calming measures [not just speed limits] reduce vehicle speeds on neighbourhood streets and may contribute to enhanced road safety, these measures can result in significantly higher fuel consumption and emission rates when drivers accelerate aggressively. We also found that newly installed speed lumps could be responsible for extra fuel consumption.

… by eliminating sharp acceleration manoeuvres significant energy and emission savings can be achieved. Consequently, significant improvements in air quality and energy consumption may be achievable through driver education.‘
www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/apr/19/ask-leo-20mph-speed-limits-pollution

So it looks like emissions and fuel use are determined by driver behaviour rather than by speed.

Also some ways of slowing down traffic (speed limits) are better for emissions and fuel use than others (speed bumps). It must cost less to change the road signs than to set up speed bumps or chicanes.

Emissions and fuel use will become less important as the proportion of electric cars on the road goes up.

Struggle to keep to 20: it’s really slow.

JaneD666

For. (I live in Wales.) I don't think the implementation has been brilliant, but I'm sure it will settle down in time. The "anti" brigade have been shouting as if ALL roads are 20 limit, but it's only roads in built-up areas and not even all of those. Other countries do this - we're playing catch-up.

I'm definitely 'for'. The statistics on deaths at 30MPH and 20MPH are irrefutable! As JaneD666 says it is only in built up areas, not all roads.
It is true that a minority of motorists will ignore any speed limit, but at least the ones driving behind me are forced to go at 20! We have several roads set at 20, and I wish there were more. Far safer for pedestrians and cyclists.

Was in Wales at the weekend, it’s difficult to maintain 20mph in my car, constantly swapping between gears so I can’t see how it’s helping emissions or being good for the car. I think it’s a very good idea in certain areas with narrow streets and definitely good outside schools but otherwise I’m against it.

Against.

Welshy

Chestnut

I think you are right by saying this and don't forget under the influence of drugs too!!!

[I think the problem is not the statutory speed limit but the way people drive. We have speeding, drink driving and selfish behaviour on the roads, which have nothing to do with the speed limit.]

My goodness, very evident driving up the motorway through a busier area.
One driver looked completely off his head, others weave in and out very dangerously or tailgate aggressively.

Modompodom

Absolutely against, apart from school roads and similar. Driving at such a low speed causes pollution, which the powers that be need to justify this war against motorists.

That’s not true.
Vehicles travelling at lower average speeds do not always emit more pollutants because average speeds mask fast and slow periods. Engines are optimally efficient when driving at a constant ('cruising') speed, not when accelerating or decelerating.
content.tfl.gov.uk › sp...PDF
Speed, emissions & health

What I’ve noticed so far is that the traffic light queues have reduced in the town where I live, because people aren’t speeding between the lights, presumably. I drive the same route at exactly the same time three days a week when I drop off and pick up my dog, and it’s easy to tell from the point at which the queues start.

FoghornLeghorn

Casdon

My driving instructor, umpteen years ago told me to drive in the gear of the speed zone I was in to avoid speeding, and I’ve always done that - it works fine.

That may have been good advice years ago but cars have improved since then. My car wants to be in 3rd gear at 20, 4th gear at 30, 5th gear at 40 and 6th gear at 50 plus. To drive in a gear too low for the speed increases both fuel usage and emissions. Bad idea on both counts.

The point is though that you can regulate the speed you drive at quite easily by driving in whatever gear meets the speed restriction, it’s very simple to gauge it.