Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

Lovetopaint037
Just be kind and try to empathise

But that’s just what the TW causing the problem don’t do!

Mollygo
Hetty58
There are (and have never been) 'women only' spaces.
So you say. Let’s instead call them spaces, where women felt free from incursion by males
The problem is that ladies toilets, changing rooms, swimming sessions etc. used to be respected. No self respecting man would have demanded entry, or pretended he was a woman in order to invade those spaces.

If one of G&T’s everlasting
but TW have been using them for ages
was using those spaces, they made absolutely certain they weren’t observable as being male, probably desperate that they weren’t recognised, rather than being there to make women uncomfortable or feel under threat.

Then those men who thought it was fun to upskirt, ogle, demonstrate that they were male and couldn’t be stopped and make women feel under threat decided a new role for TW, and TRA took up their cause with violence and shouts of transphobia and even worse, some feminists who might be expected to put women first decided that they’d support the men.
These liars, then moved on to cheating in sport, pretending to be female in women’s mental health wards where some patients were already traumatised by men, going into domestic abuse refuges and even telling rape victims that they should reframe their trauma
Evidently, you accept that TW cannot be trusted to be honest about their sex , but I don’t understand why you’re supporting their right to be in female spaces. You obviously do support that right by not condemning them for being there and making excuses about ‘no safe spaces’.

So now I have learnt this fact. How mad this world is. A-man is a man and a woman is a woman. Just add that some are born to prefer one or the other. Also some feel as if they would prefer to be the opposite gender.So what!!! It’s how it is. No big deal, no political point to be made. Everyone mind your own business and get on with actual life. Just be kind and try to empathise.

Anniebach

When wearing trousers I didn’t call myself a man

Nor do men who occasionally cross dress call themselves women. They just like the feel of the clothes and make up.

When wearing trousers I didn’t call myself a man

GrannyGravy13

vegansrock

Way too simplistic - surely what needs to be said is biological women need their safe spaces and sports etc defended but people can call themselves what they like or wear what clothes they like no problem.

I agree with people wearing whatever clothes they wish.

A man wearing a dress and heels does not give him the right to call himself a woman, therein lies the problem.

Most men who are wearing female clothes are just cross dressing on occasion because they like wearing women's clothes. What's wrong with that? I doubt that no one on here has never worn a pair of trousers.

Mollygo

25Avalon

It’s better than Keir Starmer who doesn’t seem to know😂
Well said Rishi. It could be a vote catcher.

Or Ed Davey, who thinks women can have a penis. 😂

They can have them surgically built.

This is a report of a conversation with Starmer on BB Radio 5. It seems to me that he knows exactly what a woman is.

“Firstly, a woman is an adult female, so let’s clear that one up,” he said on BBC Radio 5.

Sir Keir also said he feels “very strongly” about safe spaces for women, adding that the discussion of Labour policies has “allowed us to be clear that there should be safe places, safe spaces for women, particularly in relation to violence against women”.

“Biological women who have been subjected to violence against women and girls want a safe space where they can feel . . . that they are properly supported and protected.”

The discussion of gender is a sensitive topic for political parties, as it raises questions around the ‘trans debate’, which is a publicly divisive subject.

It comes after the Labour leader said earlier this year that 99.9% of women “of course haven’t got a penis”.

He added at the time that a “very small number” of people identify as a different gender to the one they were assigned at birth.

Thank you to karmalady and Skydancer.

We are, thankfully, in the majority although not necessarily on here!

Sanity will prevail, I’m sure of it!

I agree HelenLouise3 that there are only two genders, but if you say this openly you will have the translobby after you which is truly frightening. No doubt Rishi is being bombarded by hate mail right now.

Sorry, but if anybody casts their vote, just because of this issue they need their heads examined. There are two genders end of and who on earth needs Sunak to tell us this?

If they are in hospital I think their biological sex would be revealed on the ward.

Rosie51, that's a bit of a desperate answer, isn't it? There's been a move away from mixed wards recently - as nobody likes them.

What would be the point in asking somebody their sex, though? They could lie, you know. Thanks for proving my point about the hypothetical thoughts and worries of some women though.

Wrong Hetty58 hospital wards used to be strictly women ie females or men ie males. I think doctors know the biology of the two sexes don't you? If they don't there could be some fatal mistakes.
Glorianny you always do the "how do we know" bit. How do you know whether the people you're interacting with are men or women, do you really ask each and every one "Are you a man or a woman?" That would be really odd, most of us just go on the visual clues and our innate, developed over millennia of human existence, instinct necessary for the survival of the race.

Glorianny, as we all know, this is just a hypothetical question anyway. There are (and have never been) 'women only' spaces - as no genital or DNA evidence is ever required - anywhere (except perhaps in sports). I always have a giggle, as I really can't imagine any GN members stripping naked in a communal space anyway. Others (and the horses) would take fright and run away, I'm sure!

That statement just illustrates what a dim little chap he really is. His wife's praise was a clever move and might fool some, but the rest of us see it for what it was. Yawn, roll on the election.

There are a few people on Gransnet who there is no point saying anything at all to. They are playing their own card game, and where others see conversations, they see only a chance of trumping as many posts as possible.

Elegran I find there is little point saying this to Glorianny. She supports male rights to be in female safe spaces and says it is the women’s job to deal with it if they find them there. Then we move onto asking people to expose themselves instead of as I suggest, expecting them to be honest.
The ones at fault here are the TW and their supporters, not the females who object to their presence.

A swimming pool near me has a communal women's changing room - or it did on the one occasion I went there, some years ago. The lockers were arranged to form a series of smaller areas, so it was possible to find a corner that wasn't in direct view of the few other women who were changing, but if it had been busier that would not have been possible.

A swimming pool is a place where it is impossible NOT to be naked at one point in the changing process.

Glorianny That is where communal changing rooms fail. There should be at least one private cubicle for the use of those who either have features which are not acceptable in a female space, or who don't like stripping off in public for their own reasons - and people whose sex is visually indeterminate shouldn't take offence if they are directed toward a cubicle.

There is a lot more attention given currently to the sensitive feelings of trans people and those " in your leathers, short haired, a bit butch" than there is to the sensitivities of vulnerable and half-dressed women to the sudden sight of a similarly unclothed male next to them.

nanasam

I would be more than very upset if I was naked in a changing room and someone came in dressed as a woman, only to remove their clothing and show a flat chest and a penis.

I'd be upset if I was naked in any changing room and anyone else saw me. Changing rooms should be spaces where you are not seen naked and you are not made to look at anyone else naked..

Glorianny, you’re the one who keeps mentioning showing their genitals.
I believe males should be honest and not lie by word or action about their sex.
Do you believe it’s right that they do?

I would be more than very upset if I was naked in a changing room and someone came in dressed as a woman, only to remove their clothing and show a flat chest and a penis.

Mollygo

Who said it made him electable? I’m just pleased he spoke the truth about men being men and women being women. If that was really all it takes to get someone elected, I’m surprised other leaders can’t speak that truth.

This exactly. ^

I’m very pleased to see that things are being rowed back on all this. Transwomen are now rightfully, IMO, being excluded from women’s sports and female hospital wards will be for biological women - something I recall fighting for in the first place way back in the 70’s and 80’s.

Elegran

In most cases there is no need for someone to strip off to prove which sex they are, and if they have had skilled surgery and are taking the appropriate hormones it might not be obvious even then. "So watch what you wear cos if you are in your leathers, short haired, a bit butch, you are going to be asked to prove you are a woman. " (by Glorianny) is just baiting posters to get them angry. Glorianny is good at that. The whole jizz of someone who self-identitfies as the opposite sex without actually taking any steps to really make themselves more like one differs both from real men or real women and from people who have successfully made the transition. It is in the details, including the walk and the bearing and above all the attitude

The prat who stormed into the speed dating event for lesbians wearing skin-tight trousers over his erect male member and insisted that he was a woman and therefore shoud be included didn't need to strip off to show his credentials - they were prominently displayed. Neither do any other activists who bully their way into places where they should not be. Actions speak louder than words. Saying that they self-identify as Cleopatra wouldn't get anyone a free ride on the Pharoah's luxury barge cruising down the Nile.

So how do you think the staff in a shop looking at who is going to go into the women's changing room are going to decide who not to admit Elegran?

If I ask anything about how people will prove if they are a man or a woman I'm told I'm obsessed with genitals. I'm not. I just want to know how this supposedly simple idea will be put into practice in everyday life. And to point out the dangers of policies which rely solely on discriminating by appearance.

And Sunak saying a man is a man and a woman is a woman is about as clear as mud.