Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

With functioning testes Caster Semenya went through a male puberty with its physical advantages, and naturally produces testosterone within the normal male range. It is very sad for Caster, but why should females be beaten by a male body? The other banned athletes most probably have the same DSD as Caster, it's not racism it's biology. Testosterone was the drug Russia and East Germany administered to their female athletes to enable them to dominate events for years. Higher levels of testosterone give an unfair advantage.
Nowadays there don't have to be invasive tests to determine the sex of athletes, a cheek swab is sufficient. It's worth noting that those genetically male athletes raised as female who have AIS do compete as women because being insensitive to testosterone they do not go through a male puberty or produce high levels of the hormone and therefore do not have an unfair advantage.

I really don't see why I am expected to present proof of how CS lived her life.

Just because you confidently asserted that she had, and expected us to answer based on that assertion. Given that I for one had already stated that I know little about it, it seems reasonable to assume that you would post facts, rather than guesses. Even if you don’t have proof, which is fair enough, some idea of why you stated that CS has always lived as a woman (and presented it as fact) would have helped.

Is it only black women who are tested for sex differences?

Doodledog

*But you have referred to her as "they" without consideration of the fact that she is still participating in events as a woman, so obviously chooses to identify with the female decision made at her birth.*
Have I? I’d be surprised if so, as it’s not a term I normally use to describe someone identifiable in the singular - I use their name or their sex-based pronoun.

The latest ‘thing’ on here seems to be to expect people to remember every comment they’ve made and everything they are responding to word for word, and accusing them of misrepresenting or even lying if they get it slightly wrong, so if I have said it, maybe it was out of politeness. I’m not falling into the trap of having to scrutinise every post I’ve made before posting. I suspect that you have mistaken me for someone else though.

I keep saying that I don’t follow athletics and I know little about the case, but you keep suggesting that I am ‘othering’ or ‘vilifying’ CS - I’m not. I asked what it is about her life that brought you to post that she ‘had always lived as a woman’ - is the fact that she used women’s facilities the basis on which you said that? It’s a bit chicken and egg if so. If I used male changing rooms would that mean I was ‘living as a man’, and would that, in turn, mean that I had become one? For how long would I have had to have used them for it to mean that I had ‘always’ lived as a man? It’s a mystery to me, as it is not biologically possible to change sex.

I apologise*Doodledog*it was Galaxywho called her"they".

I really don't see why I am expected to present proof of how CS lived her life . She was designated female at birth. I wasn't there, but I assume those present used the evidence they saw. Regardless of how she lived otherwise, she was accepted in women's athletics as a woman after numerous tests, until testosterone levels were introduced. She is one of many black women athletes who have been treated in similar ways. There is no doubt that African and Eastern countries regard this as racism.
But the fact remains Sunak's statement is patently rubbish

But you have referred to her as "they" without consideration of the fact that she is still participating in events as a woman, so obviously chooses to identify with the female decision made at her birth.
Have I? I’d be surprised if so, as it’s not a term I normally use to describe someone identifiable in the singular - I use their name or their sex-based pronoun.

The latest ‘thing’ on here seems to be to expect people to remember every comment they’ve made and everything they are responding to word for word, and accusing them of misrepresenting or even lying if they get it slightly wrong, so if I have said it, maybe it was out of politeness. I’m not falling into the trap of having to scrutinise every post I’ve made before posting. I suspect that you have mistaken me for someone else though.

I keep saying that I don’t follow athletics and I know little about the case, but you keep suggesting that I am ‘othering’ or ‘vilifying’ CS - I’m not. I asked what it is about her life that brought you to post that she ‘had always lived as a woman’ - is the fact that she used women’s facilities the basis on which you said that? It’s a bit chicken and egg if so. If I used male changing rooms would that mean I was ‘living as a man’, and would that, in turn, mean that I had become one? For how long would I have had to have used them for it to mean that I had ‘always’ lived as a man? It’s a mystery to me, as it is not biologically possible to change sex.

CS may compete as a woman. She may live as a woman, identify as a woman - she's entitled to do that.

Genetically, she is male.

Men are men and women are women and no amount of dragging in diversions will change that, Glorianny.

If you were competing against and lost your medal because of CS or other males, IMO you would undoubtedly have hunted all the information now available about CS

I’m glad you or your family have not been not been in a position where you have been negatively affected by males lying that they are ‘women’ which you still seem to endorse by supporting all TW.
I have.

Doodledog

*Glorianny*, You brought CS into this, as you so often do, as a way of tripping people up. You said she ‘lived as a woman’, refused to say what that meant, then had a dig at Rosie for commenting about it. You then take that jibe (that ‘we’ don’t designate gender by appearance) as the premise for another jibe - that people are ‘vilifying’ and ‘othering’.

What is it about CS’s early life that leads you to decree that she ‘lived as a woman’ as you claim? I have no idea, but as you brought CS up again, and as you mentioned her early life, I assume that you have an opinion?

Also, you have repeated that testing is intrusive, but not said what reason was given by the sporting authorities when they decided CS’s case. What was it?

I'm not "tripping people up" I'm pointing out holes in the idea proposed by Sunak and applauded by many that you can say Men are men and women are women, If there were no holes no one could be "tripped up" as you put it.
CS entered women's athletic events, would therefore have used women's changing rooms and toilets and occupied the women's quarters on residential events. She was designated female at birth.

But you have referred to her as "they" without consideration of the fact that she is still participating in events as a woman, so obviously chooses to identify with the female decision made at her birth.

The decisions of the Athletics ruling body are never made public only the results are available. She was permitted to continue competing as a woman

It is vilifying and othering a person to not respect their views and to insist they must be something they have consistently insisted they are not. CS is a woman, she has always, and still does compete as a woman.

Glorianny As you continue to deliberately twist my words and misrepresent me, I conclude that you are unable to justify any of your claims, including the one that high ranking athletes don't menstruate. Well you're half right, none of the men do!
Incidentally, it's biology that decided CS is male, nothing to do with me at all. You know that deep down, but it doesn't fit your agenda to admit it.

Rosie51

^As for criticising the clothes she wore as a child and the activities she took part in, that really is a bit much. I thought we didn't designate gender from appearances?^ that's rich coming from someone who said CS had 'lived as a woman' but won't say what exactly that involves. I pointed out that CS had always been more comfortable with males, preferring traditional male dress and occupations. I also said Now I don't think that's what makes CS a man, so I wasn't designating CS as anything from that. Are you using gender as 'presentation' or sex, it's so hard to tell as you have used it in both senses at times? CS is genetically male, has a condition that only affects males, that is what makes CS a man.

There you have it- because I know her chromosomes she is a man. I've decided. At birth no one tests your chromosomes. You are designated by your genitalia. She was designated a woman, but apparently that is wrong.
She preferred male pastimes so she can't be a woman
How judgemental can you get?

Glorianny, You brought CS into this, as you so often do, as a way of tripping people up. You said she ‘lived as a woman’, refused to say what that meant, then had a dig at Rosie for commenting about it. You then take that jibe (that ‘we’ don’t designate gender by appearance) as the premise for another jibe - that people are ‘vilifying’ and ‘othering’.

What is it about CS’s early life that leads you to decree that she ‘lived as a woman’ as you claim? I have no idea, but as you brought CS up again, and as you mentioned her early life, I assume that you have an opinion?

Also, you have repeated that testing is intrusive, but not said what reason was given by the sporting authorities when they decided CS’s case. What was it?

As for criticising the clothes she wore as a child and the activities she took part in, that really is a bit much. I thought we didn't designate gender from appearances? that's rich coming from someone who said CS had 'lived as a woman' but won't say what exactly that involves. I pointed out that CS had always been more comfortable with males, preferring traditional male dress and occupations. I also said Now I don't think that's what makes CS a man, so I wasn't designating CS as anything from that. Are you using gender as 'presentation' or sex, it's so hard to tell as you have used it in both senses at times? CS is genetically male, has a condition that only affects males, that is what makes CS a man.

It also goes to show that the condemnation is not entirely concerned with trans issues, but that trans issues are simply a way of expressing discriminatory views in a way which could be regarded as acceptable. That actually it isn't about rights, it is about trying to villify and "other" anyone who doesn't conform to certain set ideas.

It was common practice to examine women athletes to determine sex, and could be done for any number of reasons, another athlete complained, the timings were questioned because they were records. The actual examination of women was completely and absolutely intrusive and would today probably be described as assault.
But if you are interested in her the details are here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
There is absolutely no doubt that she was cleared to compete in women's athletics until the testosterone level was introduced.
So in spite of all the accusations on here she was classified as female and took part in women's athletics.

As for criticising the clothes she wore as a child and the activities she took part in, that really is a bit much. I thought we didn't designate gender from appearances?

And all any of these discussions show is that the statement a "Man is a man and a woman is a woman" is neither as true nor as simple as some have stated. Because on this thread someone who was designated a woman at birth, has been criticised for her choices as a child, designated a man because of her chromosomes and called by the non-binary term "they". So evidently nothing is really straight forward.

I asked that upthread, too, along with why did the athletics authorities decide to test CS to determine sex, and what did they say about the results of those tests - ie what was the reason given for their decision. I would appreciate those answers, too. I ask in an entirely non-demanding way, obviously, but it would further the discussion if we knew the answers.

Chromosome variations do not result in a 'third' role in reproduction. Those with chromosome variations who are fertile, produce either sperm or egg - not a third gamete type.

In case it's not clear I'd appreciate Glorianny explaining exactly how Caster Semenya has been "living as a woman" as opposed to "living as a man" or even "living as a human being"

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny do you have one iota of sympathy or concern for the females who lost places and medals to a genetically male athlete? I care that they dedicated their lives to training to achieve their goals only to be beaten by an athlete with the advantage of having gone through a male puberty. Did anyone express concern about Caster never having had a period? Surely that was investigated? My friend who was born without ovaries caused concern when she hadn't started menstruating by 16.

High level female athletes seldom menstruate its one of the results of intense training.
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"

Where on earth did you get the idea high level female athletes seldom menstruate? Some use birth control pills to manage their menstrual cycle, but that is artificial control.
Now you're dictating what is up for discussion? I suppose that's one way of avoiding having to confirm that genetically male CS is your priority over the genetically female athletes denied places or medals by CS.
Incidentally you still haven't answered what 'living like a woman' means. CS's own father confirmed that CS never ever wore skirts or dresses, played with girls or had any interest in any traditional girl's toys or past times preferring the boy's games, wrestling, etc and could out perform most of them. Now I don't think that's what makes CS a man, but none of that is traditional 'living as a girl/woman' so can you elucidate?

Er have you seen the interviews with CS about their childhood. There is quite a lot of contradictory evidence about living as a girl.

Sorry - cross posted.

I don't know the answer to why CS was examined several times, but I assume you do, and I asked upthread, but you haven't answered. What was it about her that made the officials question her female status?

Glorianny
* High level female athletes seldom menstruate its one of the results of intense training.*
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"
You introduced women athletes.
You introduced Caster Semanya.

Had you forgotten . . .
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"

Which they are.

On what grounds are you suggesting that CS is, in fact, female?

Doodledog

Yes. It is true. If CS has a condition that is only present in males then by definition CS is male.

Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative, but logically it appears to be the case.

She would be assigned female at birth because she has female genitalia. She has always lived as a woman. She was examined several times when she was competing.

So what you seem to be saying is someone with female genitalia can be designated male because of chromosomes. How does that agree with "Men are men and women are women"?

Rosie51

Glorianny do you have one iota of sympathy or concern for the females who lost places and medals to a genetically male athlete? I care that they dedicated their lives to training to achieve their goals only to be beaten by an athlete with the advantage of having gone through a male puberty. Did anyone express concern about Caster never having had a period? Surely that was investigated? My friend who was born without ovaries caused concern when she hadn't started menstruating by 16.

High level female athletes seldom menstruate its one of the results of intense training.
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"

Glorianny
But of course Sunak says "Men are men and women are women" Only it isn't true is it?
Yes it’s true, however much you don’t want it to be.

Glorianny do you have one iota of sympathy or concern for the females who lost places and medals to a genetically male athlete? I care that they dedicated their lives to training to achieve their goals only to be beaten by an athlete with the advantage of having gone through a male puberty. Did anyone express concern about Caster never having had a period? Surely that was investigated? My friend who was born without ovaries caused concern when she hadn't started menstruating by 16.